Climb Out Instructions Expectation

Sabrepilot

Newcomer
Dec 15, 2013
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During practice approaches on an IFR clearance, does ATC expect me to perform my verbally assigned climb out instructions at 400 AGL even if there is a published DP? ie. "climb to 1500 before turning right." If so, ATC is taking responsibility for obstacle clearance when they assign me a heading and altitude to fly after completion of touch and go? I can't seem to get a solid answer out of the FAR/AIM. Thank you.
 

Sabrepilot

Newcomer
Dec 15, 2013
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Is it safe to assume then that climb out instructions are for ATC separation convenience only without regard for obstacle clearance?
 

NovemberEcho

Epic Member
Dec 8, 2010
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ATC can only seperate from obstructions depicted on their map. If you are given climbout instructions, and there is published instructions for the pilot to avoid obstacles on/near the airport, you would execute those instructions prior to executing the climbout instructions.
 

DoobieScoo

Newcomer
Jun 13, 2010
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I work at an up/down where military practice approaches are our bread and butter. If I give you an instruction for your climb out, you damn well better comply with it. If you're unclear on what I'm expecting, feel free to ask about it the first time. I'd rather take a second for the extra transmission than have you do something unexpected.

About a year ago, we had pilots start asking about some published departure procedure for one of our parallels when we gave them climb out. Well, it turns out someone published a procedure that none of us were briefed on, made no sense for the operation, and would actually send every departure from that runway across the departure path of the parallel runway. If you fly that instead of complying with my verbal climb out instruction and get into a tangle, you may well get out of trouble when I violate your ass, but you'll surely never get another approach at either of my primary airports when I'm plugged in.
 

Sabrepilot

Newcomer
Dec 15, 2013
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The question remains: do your climb out instructions guarantee me obstacle clearance assuming a standard climb gradient and turn started at 400agl? I understand your instructions make sense to organize your airspace but is that all they are based on?
 

DoobieScoo

Newcomer
Jun 13, 2010
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The question remains: do your climb out instructions guarantee me obstacle clearance assuming a standard club gradient and turn started at 400agl? I understand your instructions make sense to organize you airspace but is that all they are based on?
In our case, yes. Any heading and altitude I give you is also an approved heading and altitude to be assigned by the tower on departure. Our procedures have all been signed off on by the chemical engineers and accountants at headquarters who make the rules that air traffic is saddled with. Once again though, and I can't stress this enough, if you aren't clear when I give you the instruction, go ahead and ask. It might annoy me, but I'd rather be annoyed at that than have you do something unexpected.
 

accraft

Senior Analyst
Feb 20, 2011
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Oxnard, CA
Yeah, you will be clear of obstacles . In my time at NQI, Because of the MVA, It was always Climb to 2500 upon reaching then the turn. But you would climb from runway heading so good to go. Any turns while on a missed and IFR while under MVA Im pretty sure is illegal. So they will get you to MVA as soon as possible any way, in most cases.
 

Sabrepilot

Newcomer
Dec 15, 2013
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Now, what if Approach tells me my climb out instructions are to "fly the published missed approach"? (This happened to me yesterday). I would assume he means to delay all turns until the departure end of runway and at least 400 agl even if I decided to miss the approach at the MAP. Thoughts?
 
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Sabrepilot

Newcomer
Dec 15, 2013
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I asked for a practice ILS option followed by a VOR. Once he cleared me for the ILS, he said "at the completion of your option fly the published missed." I was told to go around by my instructor on short final. My understanding is that all climb out instructions assume you start them at the departure end of the runway and at least 400 agl.
 

NovemberEcho

Epic Member
Dec 8, 2010
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I know at my AFB the published miss is "Fly runway Hdg until 3 DME, then turn left/right heading 220, cross departure end of rwy aob 1000 then cm 1600."

At the international airport for the ILS it's "cm 700, then climbing left turn dr OLISS and hold, maintain 4000"
 

FM_Weasel

Senior Analyst
Dec 9, 2008
991
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The question remains: do your climb out instructions guarantee me obstacle clearance assuming a standard climb gradient and turn started at 400agl?
Yes, in the radar environment. I don't have experience with non radar operations.

JO7110.65:

5−5−9. SEPARATION FROM
OBSTRUCTIONS

a. Except in En Route Stage A/DARC or
Stage A/EDARC, separate aircraft from obstructions
depicted on the radar display by the following
minima:

1. When less than 40 miles from the antenna−
3 miles.

2. When 40 miles or more from the antenna−
5 miles.

b. Except in En Route Stage A/DARC or
Stage A/EDARC, vertical separation of aircraft
above an obstruction depicted on the radar display
may be discontinued after the aircraft has passed it.

c. En Route Stage A/DARC or Stage A/EDARC,
apply the radar separation minima specified in
para 5−5−4, Minima, subpara b1.

5−6−3. VECTORS BELOW MINIMUM
ALTITUDE

Except in en route automated environments in areas
where more than 3 miles separation minima is
required, you may vector a departing IFR aircraft, or
one executing a missed approach, within 40 miles of
the radar antenna and before it reaches the minimum
altitude for IFR operations if separation from
prominent obstacles shown on the radar scope is
applied in accordance with the following:

a. If the flight path is 3 miles or more from the
obstacle and the aircraft is climbing to an altitude at
least 1,000 feet above the obstacle, vector the aircraft
to maintain at least 3 miles separation from the
obstacle until the aircraft reports leaving an altitude
above the obstacle.

b. If the flight path is less than 3 miles from the
obstacle and the aircraft is climbing to an altitude at
least 1,000 feet above the obstacle, vector the aircraft
to increase lateral separation from the obstacle until
the 3 mile minimum is achieved or until the aircraft
reports leaving an altitude above the obstacle.

c. At those locations where diverse vector areas
(DVA) have been established, terminal radar
facilities may vector aircraft below the MVA/MIA
within those areas and along those routes described in
facility directives.
5−8−2. INITIAL HEADING

a. Before departure, assign the initial heading to be
flown if a departing aircraft is to be vectored
immediately after takeoff.

4−8−12. LOW APPROACH AND TOUCHAND-
GO


Consider an aircraft cleared for a touch-and-go, low
approach, or practice approach as an arriving aircraft
until that aircraft touches down or crosses the landing
threshold; thereafter, consider the aircraft as a
departing aircraft. Before the aircraft begins its final
descent, issue the appropriate departure instructions
the pilot is to follow upon completion of the approach
 
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StuSEL

Moderator
Aug 23, 2009
1,014
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You know where.
The obstacle surveys done at airports assume pilots will climb to 400' AGL prior to starting any turns. That's per the FAA Instrument Flying Handbook; I have not actually read the TERPS manual, but I would assume the FAA's own publication is correct on that front. When you declare a missed approach, climb to 400' then start a turn if necessary. On a published missed approach, if it says "Climbing right turn to 3000," I believe you can start a standard rate turn as soon as you go missed. Otherwise it would say "Fly runway heading. Upon reaching 1000, climbing right turn to 3000..."

The climbout instructions I normally receive going into towered airports are headings and altitudes that the tower itself normally assigns, and those instructions assume obstacle clearance.
 

xxDYxx

Junior Member
Jul 14, 2009
94
0
6
Kunsan
I asked for a practice ILS option followed by a VOR. Once he cleared me for the ILS, he said "at the completion of your option fly the published missed." I was told to go around by my instructor on short final. My understanding is that all climb out instructions assume you start them at the departure end of the runway and at least 400 agl.
I understand your confusion; If told to "Execute Published Missed Approach" as your climbout instructions, then your approach should terminate no later than the MAP and then start the published missed as the MAP is the last point at which that procedure is published to start. Starting it after that point and you would not be flying it as intended and, although very unlikely, could lead to some obstacle conflicts. So saying "After completion of the option execute..." is kinda misleading, as you most likely wont get the opportunity to complete any of the options except the published missed. I actually say that line a lot, but I suppose to be more technically correct it would be something to the affect of "Over MAP execute published missed approach" lol.
 
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