departure followed by full stop opposite direction

meatasaurusx

Trusted Member
Jun 19, 2008
369
2
18
Chi-town
Aircraft departs off runway 2L then a different aircraft lands 20R full stop. The arrival is a small. If the departure is a small plus or large (but never a B757/heavy) is there a MANDATORY wake turbulence advisory and/or time/milage amount?
 

eltors0

The Grog Man
Jun 25, 2011
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Yes, only in the case the departure was a large a/c. S+ departure does not apply. Ref 3-10-3 sec 3b2
 

eltors0

The Grog Man
Jun 25, 2011
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Ref 3-9-6 sec i, the use of the term behind doesn't necessarily mean the physical location of the aircraft but the sequence of events. So drawing from that, it would be understood that use of behind in the other section above would mean either the physical location or the sequence of events.
 

NYcGaNgStEr

Senior Member
May 12, 2009
297
0
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Brooklyn, NY
Just a cautionary advisory is issued here. That's just for the possibility of encountering turbulence. The only mandatory times occur behind heavy/B757 only, everything else is waiverable ...... The opposite direction 3 min. Rule is for successive departures as well. Whenever in doubt issue the advisory! It never hurts
 

FM_Weasel

Senior Analyst
Dec 9, 2008
988
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Cautionary advisory for all, sure.

Small landing after a Small + takes off opposite direction: No minute sep, unless the arrival is going to do a touch and go (become an intersection departure, and thus be affected by another section).

Small landing after a large takes off opposite direction: No minute separation, because the rule for opposite direction "small after a large" is for departures, not arrivals. This changes if the Small is doing a low approach or touch and go (becomes a departing aircraft).

7110.65U 3-9-6 i.
i. Separate a small aircraft behind a large aircraft
that has departed or made a low/missed approach
when utilizing opposite direction takeoffs on the
same runway by 3 minutes unless a pilot has initiated
a request to deviate from the 3−minute interval. In the
latter case, issue a wake turbulence advisory before
clearing the aircraft for takeoff. Controllers must not
initiate or suggest a waiver of the 3−minute rule
Any aircraft arriving after a heavy/B757 departs opposite direction: 3 minutes, because the paragraph includes "takeoffs and landings:"

7110.65U 3-9-6 j.
j. Separate aircraft behind a heavy jet/B757 that
has departed or made a low/missed approach when
utilizing opposite direction takeoffs or landings on
the same or parallel runways separated by less than
2,500 feet− 3 minutes.
As for issuing cautionary advisories:

7110.65U 3-10-3 b.
b. Issue wake turbulence advisories, and the
position, altitude if known, and the direction of flight
of:

1.
The heavy jet/B757 to aircraft landing behind
a departing/arriving heavy jet/B757 on the same or
parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet.

2. The large aircraft to a small aircraft landing
behind a departing/arriving large aircraft on the same
or parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet.
Everyone's been mentioning those paragraphs, but I thought it'd be nice to have it right here for reference. So for the specific question in the OP:

The arrival is a small. If the departure is a small plus or large (but never a B757/heavy) is there a MANDATORY wake turbulence advisory and/or time/milage amount?
If it was a small plus departure, nothing is required. If it is a large, a cautionary advisory is required (though some may actually debate the meaning of "behind" in 3-10-3 b. NOT POINTING FINGERS!) If the departure is a heavy/B757, 3 minutes is required.

Anyone feel otherwise? If so, why?
 

eltors0

The Grog Man
Jun 25, 2011
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If the departure is a heavy/B757, 3 minutes is required.
In the case of a landing aircraft behind a heavy/b757 departure, it is just a cautionary. There is no 3 minute rule, just cautionary again.

7110.65U 3-10-3 b.
b. Issue wake turbulence advisories, and the
position, altitude if known, and the direction of flight
of:

1.
The heavy jet/B757 to aircraft landing behind
a departing/arriving heavy jet/B757 on the same or
parallel runways separated by less than 2,500 feet.
 

FM_Weasel

Senior Analyst
Dec 9, 2008
988
7
18
How do you address the paragraph I quoted above then?

7110.65U 3-9-6 j.
j. Separate aircraft behind a heavy jet/B757 that
has departed or made a low/missed approach when
utilizing opposite direction takeoffs or landings
on
the same or parallel runways separated by less than
2,500 feet− 3 minutes.
 

eltors0

The Grog Man
Jun 25, 2011
283
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How do you address the paragraph I quoted above then?

That section is covering departure procedures and separation, not the arrival procedures and separation. What that section is saying is pretty much if you launch a heavy off your departure runway or if you are landing and departing off a certain runway that a heavy has conducted a low or missed approach and you are attempting to depart another a/c from that same runway but opposite direction (ie ry 36 vs ry 18), then apply 3 minute interval.

The section above that I cited stated that if you launch a heavy from the same runway or if a heavy has landed the same runway, (regardless of opposite direction or intersection departure), a cautionary advisory is mandatory.
 

FM_Weasel

Senior Analyst
Dec 9, 2008
988
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I've been reviewing Ch 3 Sec 9 and I'm still on the fence. All of the other paragraphs in this section say either "Separate a departing aircraft" or "Separate an aircraft taking off."

In 3-9-6 i and j, it just says "separate aircraft behind."

In the case of subpara i, it specifies "when utilizing opposite direction takeoffs."

In the case of subpara j, it includes both "takeoffs" and "landings." It'd be nice if it started out "Separate an aircraft taking off behind a Heavy/B757..." This paragraph include both takeoffs and landings, but doesn't really specify which aircraft (if it's not both) are doing the taking off or landing.

God I love this book.
 

eltors0

The Grog Man
Jun 25, 2011
283
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OH
I know how you feel dude, but it just wouldn't make any sense why they would put arrival wake turbulence application in the departure procedure section, especially since they cover the arrival wake turbulence application in the following section.
 

FM_Weasel

Senior Analyst
Dec 9, 2008
988
7
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I hear that. Though I'm not sure that making sense is a prerequisite for a rule in our manual.
 

JoshATC

Epic Member
Jun 27, 2010
1,384
7
38
ZLA CPC
I can't copy and paste cause I'm on my phone but I have the 65 open and on my lap. Go to the very first paragraph of 3-9-6. It specifically says departing a/c and then you go on to read part J.
 

FM_Weasel

Senior Analyst
Dec 9, 2008
988
7
18
Ah there it is. I'm definitely good with that. As always the answer is right under my nose.