Enroute washouts / psych outs

Papa_Papa

Rookie
Feb 2, 2012
41
0
6
No Mans Land
So what's the low down? Hear-say is 70% washout rate for enroute ...so only 4-5 people passing from a class? Any insight from current students or prior. Looks like some people should learn they're not in a college setting anymore and it's your potential career. Failure isn't an option, party later .
 

BOILER_UP

Junior Member
Feb 29, 2012
102
0
16
West Lafayette, IN
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

So what's the low down? Hear-say is 70% washout rate for enroute ...so only 4-5 people passing from a class? Any insight from current students or prior. Looks like some people should learn they're not in a college setting anymore and it's your potential career. Failure isn't an option, party later .
you mean 30% washout rate? 70% success. My friend just got back from academy. 60% success rate for his class.

Maybe colleges should quit being so lenient. But they only care about money. There is no way some of the kids in my classes will make it a week in okc.
 

mikecoyne34

Senior Analyst
Nov 19, 2009
827
0
16
D10
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

The ability to do this job doesn't have much to do with intelligence or study habits. Some people can do it and some can't. The academy teaches you the most basic of basic application of this job. The academy is about as easy as it's going to get. That's the best place to find out if you can do it or not instead of working at a facility for years then being booted. Of course that's in the FAAs eyes.
 

mikefsfr

Epic Member
May 31, 2010
1,212
3
38
Train Me.
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

The FAA is more than ability and study . It's as screwed up and warped as American politics- from trainers certifying retards to holding back people with the upmost capability. Play the game- I never dreamed it was this bad but it's sickening.do research on where you want to be.
 

FM_Weasel

Senior Analyst
Dec 9, 2008
991
7
18
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

Yeah, potential success is tough to judge in this job. Personal work ethic does count for a lot. But don't rule out politics and facility morale. Those two may have more influence on your success than your study habits or ability.

If you're really good at the job then you should be OK assuming you don't piss off the wrong people. It's when you get to more average performers where you start to see people of similar talents have totally different training outcomes.
 

skyway172

Rookie
Jun 22, 2009
38
0
6
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

I have a friend in an up/down that said there was a new controller hired there about a year ago. The new controller passed the academy, and went to the facility. On a checkride, the new controller had 2 deals, and was putting 172's in front of A320's on final (or similar where speed would have been an issue and someone had to go around). Regardless, the new controller got signed off. Someone complained stating "How can they get certified when they can't even run final without putting planes together?" The Sup said "Well, they'll learn it eventually". Every facility is different, and although nobody is perfect, I wouldn't expect to get certified on that run if I put planes together during my final facility PV.
 

rogersjf

Trusted Contributor
Mar 11, 2009
656
9
18
New Jersey
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

The academy is failing to produce the results the centers want this is evident in a memo that was circulated in late 2011 & early 2012 by ATM's. Subsequently, the academy added 6 more people to the new course and became more stringent on grading students thus making the washout rate higher at the academy. They have also added more scenarios during the PV(which in my opinion are very different in the degree of difficulty based on which one you get). Example leading up to the PV you see multiple JAN emergencies (10+) however you see a very minimal amount of GWO emergencies (3 to be exact) during the beginning of your runs. However on the PV I saw no JAN emergencies instead I had the GWO emergencies. Where as multiple students had the opposite. LIkewise they have changed the point system in the way prompts and coordinations are graded.

Being one of those washouts (less then a point) it sucks, however the problem rests in the lack of oversight of the evaluators. They are judge, jury and executioner. The prime example that I can use is my one evaluator (perry ann) stated in my debriefing
"That I was sitting to close to the R-side. and if that was her she would have felt very uncomfortable, working with me. However I did not take points off for that on your sheet."​
The one problem is that under FOIA i requested all of my documents and on the paper there it was 2 points off for sitting to close to the R-side. There is no oversight and clearly one can question that whole grading sheet based on the above, however as a probationary employee you have no recourse.

You can better understand the failure rates based on how the academy is failing in this independent review commissioned by the FAA http://www.faa.gov/news/updates/media/IRP Report on Selection Assignment Training of ATCS FINAL 20110922.pdf it is worth a read. Likewise I believe once the numbers come out for he whole 2012 you will see a spik in washouts on the enroute side.

The key to the academy is to make it out, once you do the joke is the academy.
 

mikecoyne34

Senior Analyst
Nov 19, 2009
827
0
16
D10
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

Question. I was in tower class this past November. The one guy that failed with the examiners that came in from other locations on his 2 attempts, was given a third chance from an unbiased, in house, QA guy. Are enroute students given the same opportunity?
 

rogersjf

Trusted Contributor
Mar 11, 2009
656
9
18
New Jersey
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

Question. I was in tower class this past November. The one guy that failed with the examiners that came in from other locations on his 2 attempts, was given a third chance from an unbiased, in house, QA guy. Are enroute students given the same opportunity?
No that is not an enroute option however if you request your file under FOIA that sheet is located in your file JO3120.27 http://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/JO3120.27C.pdf. Doctors get more chances on their boards then enroute. However tower will be switching over to the enroute grading in the near future
 

UNDgrad06

Epic Member
Dec 8, 2010
1,309
14
38
Peachtree City, GA
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

Honestly if you can't make it out of the academy then you have to be a real dummy. You are spoon fed the information at the academy and the test answers are basically laid out in front of you. There is not a scenario that you run that has things you haven't talked about before.
 

jtomes

Senior Member
Mar 30, 2010
270
1
18
Memphis TN
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

there is a difference between being easy and just not having the chops for this job... its not for everyone
 

RomeoIndia

Rookie
Aug 5, 2011
62
0
6
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

Looks like some people should learn they're not in a college setting anymore and it's your potential career. Failure isn't an option, party later .
I completely agree, however it seems as if the FAA could care less. Rumor is that there is a class starting in October solely for en route washouts. They've already failed, yet the FAA is going to try them again.
 

fabby82

Junior Member
Apr 22, 2010
140
0
16
California
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

I completely agree, however it seems as if the FAA could care less. Rumor is that there is a class starting in October solely for en route washouts. They've already failed, yet the FAA is going to try them again.
How credible is that rumor, what's your source?
 

mbalunda

Epic Member
Jan 31, 2009
2,867
15
38
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

How credible is that rumor, what's your source?
Washouts frequently get switched towers depending on the circumstances, so it's very likely. I doubt they're going to put them back through an en route class again.
 

mjh55404

Senior Analyst
Jul 3, 2009
996
0
16
OKC
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

They are judge, jury and executioner. The prime example that I can use is my one evaluator (perry ann) stated in my debriefing
PA docked me points TWICE in my non-radar PV because my black circle ( coordination ) touched my red circle ( pre planning ) on two of my strips.

I was so angry I was smiling ear to ear and just asked her where do I sign?

Hope you get the hard evaluators in non radar because it is unlikely that you will have the same one twice.
 

mjh55404

Senior Analyst
Jul 3, 2009
996
0
16
OKC
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

My class lost 1 of 12 in OKC. The one we lost was a commercial pilot.

Some centers are harder than others....I would not say that it has to do with traffic. Some centers have the R sides do the majority of the work while others push more on the D sides. So someone at ZAU may breeze through D sides and wash out quickly on the R sides.

ZOA has D sides, make and take all hand offs, point outs and make many traffic calls from the D sides. No auto handoffs allowed during OJT. You basically can be asked to make any call and any thing except talk to the plane. So we wash the majority of people out in DYSIM or on their first D side or two.

We recently sent 13 through DYSIM and 7 washed out.

ZOA was recently at under 175 CPC's so it is not like ZOA does not need the staffing. Supervisors also do not decide if you get checked out at ZOA....it is up to your trainers and NATCA ( who represents your trainers ) to decide if you get a reccomend. ZOA has a practice that Supervisors are not allowed to give someone a check ride without a recomendation from your primary and secondary trainer. As long as the facility keeps getting developmentals ZOA will just hope that they get "some better talent" from OKC rather then dig in and work on some of the people they have already. We also do not give a lot of hours for OJT compared to some other centers like ZLA and ZMP.

All in All we wash out at least 50% of the poeple in DYSIM or OJT at ZOA.

ZOA in the meantime seems to be picking up CPC's to fill the void. I know one level 4 CPC who transferred in and hear that we gave offers to 8 CPC's to come from ZLC. We also picked up a few people who can already retire.

You should hope OKC is hard so that you are likely to get to your facility and check out rather than just pass and move on to a center only to wash out 6-8 months later.
 

UNDgrad06

Epic Member
Dec 8, 2010
1,309
14
38
Peachtree City, GA
Man how centers are different. At ZME in most areas D-sides don't hardly do anything with the scope. They are there to take and make points and coordinate over the line, that is about it. I would say that 95% of trainees can get their D sides here, it is not that difficult. IMO, a lot get checked out that should be but, no body cares about my opinion.

R sides is a different story. I would say about 50% wash out in either R school or on R side OJT. R sides generally take care of everything on the scope. Most don't like the D side to touch anything. Maybe move an overlapping data block. Only make a handoff if the auto hand off isn't working. Maybe offer a suggestion on separation. Not much else.

I can see the benefits of both ways of training, and each has their good parts. I wish we washed more people out sooner, and didn't waste their time. There are too many stories and people who just bought a nice house/car or whatever and then they wash out, all because, they though they were the shiznit on the D side. Not to bash the position, but honestly, I could teach someone the basics of the D side position in about one day. Anyone can do it.

I wish the agency would have pernament D sides. It would be a nice little career for some to make maybe like 50K in a center. That wouldn't be a bad little gig.