Enroute washouts / psych outs

AlphaLima

Trusted Member
Jun 20, 2008
405
1
18
A black hole
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

ZOA has D sides, make and take all hand offs, point outs and make many traffic calls from the D sides. No auto handoffs allowed during OJT.
Curious, when you say auto handoffs are you talking the auto flash ones or flashing them at all? IE manually call for each and every handoff.
 

mjh55404

Senior Analyst
Jul 3, 2009
996
0
16
OKC
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

Curious, when you say auto handoffs are you talking the auto flash ones or flashing them at all? IE manually call for each and every handoff.
I mean exactly what the guy posted above. Auto handoff is when host will flash the data block to what it HOPES is the right sector.

This is not always the case and at ZOA the practice is they turn it off and you make all handoffs from the D side and will likely have the least helpful R side in the world... ( the opposite of OKC )

Also this puts it in the D side's hands to decide if and who gets a point out on each plane before handing them off to a sector.

Here, you can expect the R side to put in the altitudes they issue and most routes they issue. ZOA has some glaring automation failures that require us to enter routes from on the D side or you will get [????] for the next fix in URET......so then that is another thing the D side does for the R side.

I would be curious to know if one of the cons that UNDgrad06 might have about our method from his viewpoint is that this puts too many hands in the pot.....R side is not running the sector....does not like what the trainee is doing.....does not like what the trainer is telling the trainee....suddenly everyone is frustrated???? That is my take on it.

I disagree on UND's comment on permanent D sides from what I have seen here at ZOA. We are down to like 160 CPC's so very few sectors have D sides ever....if any thing the practice is to get some one in the D when a sector is busy then they take it over when it slows down. I see most of the D side work going away with automation anyway....right now it is a way to train people. We have sectors that are only open stand alone 2-3 days a year and even combined rarely get a D side outside of OJT.
 

RomeoIndia

Rookie
Aug 5, 2011
62
0
6
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

Washouts frequently get switched towers depending on the circumstances, so it's very likely. I doubt they're going to put them back through an en route class again.
Whether they're putting them through an en route class again, that I don't know. Fact of the matter is though, they've already failed. Give someone else a shot.
 

mbalunda

Epic Member
Jan 31, 2009
2,867
15
38
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

Whether they're putting them through an en route class again, that I don't know. Fact of the matter is though, they've already failed. Give someone else a shot.
You say that now...
 

purpletw

Trusted Member
Dec 14, 2010
360
1
18
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

Whether they're putting them through an en route class again, that I don't know. Fact of the matter is though, they've already failed. Give someone else a shot.
Wow that takes some balls.
 

mjh55404

Senior Analyst
Jul 3, 2009
996
0
16
OKC
Re: Enroute washouts / psych outs.

I completely agree, however it seems as if the FAA could care less. Rumor is that there is a class starting in October solely for en route washouts. They've already failed, yet the FAA is going to try them again.
You should do some research and think about what you are saying.
You are headed to an environment where applicants like yourself have no say over the type of facility you go to. When and if you pass OKC then your facility will decide what area you go to.....some do it by score. So maybe you had a hard time in OKC but ran your Eval second and somehow knew what to look for thanks to your classmates and did great on that eval....SO then ZLA says hey he scored the highest on the eval and sends you to the hardest area. Good luck with that 

All along you might have been just fine at a level 6 or 7 but hey this is the FAA and you were sent to a level 11 or 12 center. Center developmentals to not get to start at slow centers and move up.

One year later you have learned a lot but are not able to check out on your sector so the AGENCY decides you are worth retaining because they have invested so much into you and you have demonstrated skill in ATC. Per our contract you are offered 5 low level facilities to choose from.
Some are not offered this and terminated…most likely before their probation ends.
Now not too long ago you would go directly to your new low level terminal facility because you already had the basics from OKC. The most recent contract says that EnRoute training failures will attend OKC tower training. This was put in to take this burden off the small towers that do not have simulators and give you the training you need to succeed. The new hires in those classes are not there for training....they are there so the FAA can decide if they are capable of becoming a controller.
Much of what they teach you is very redundant to someone who has been through OKC already. I am not sure why they decided to split the classes up but to me it makes sense. Why not put the guys/gals in slacks with ties that are being eyed as candidates together in one group and the Center or Tracon wash outs in a class where they can concentrate on their training? They already keep the RTF people in another building away from the new hires.

The FAA has done this for a long time. Even under the white book the FAA still retained people. People of ALL STRIPES wash out. I have seen someone wash out of SJC ( Level 7 ) get sent to a level 5 tower. I have seen a former DOD controller wash out of PAO ( level 6 VFR ) get sent to a level 5 tower. I work with a guy who checked out in the tower at HLN ( Level 5 Tower/Non Radar Approach) who washed out on the non-radar get sent to another level 5 tower. You probably have never heard much about this because they are not on Stuck Mic and do not need to attend OKC.

I work at a Center right now and I have had both a Supervisor who washed out of our center, CPC’d in a tower then bid back to the Center and CPC’d before becoming a Sup and our training manager that greeted me from OKC washed out of ZMP and worked in a bunch of terminals before coming back to Enroute and moving into management.

Try to be humble man….it will get you a long way….maybe in the door and past probation. Possibly to CPC.
 

RomeoIndia

Rookie
Aug 5, 2011
62
0
6
I understand where you're coming from, and this has nothing to do with me being humble. But when you're waiting years to be picked up with the FAA and someone who already hasn't made it gets another shot, it can be frustrating. Not here to argue, just an opinion.
 

mjh55404

Senior Analyst
Jul 3, 2009
996
0
16
OKC
I understand where you're coming from, and this has nothing to do with me being humble. But when you're waiting years to be picked up with the FAA and someone who already hasn't made it gets another shot, it can be frustrating. Not here to argue, just an opinion.
My advice after work for a State, County, the IRS and now the FAA:

You need a lot of faith or a lot of humor to deal with all of this....or you will go crazy.

I received my TOL in June of 09....was supposed to start in January 2010...numbers cut so no deal. Then ZOA started picking up people again but because redirects from ZDV and ZSE had older TOL's they got to go first. I get a class date of February of 2011 and graduated exactly two years from my TOL. I show up at ZOA and watch several of the redirects in front of me ERR and hardship back to Colorado. This is only the begining/

Get some popcorn and kick your feet up....it is going to be a long road with lots of turns.

Good Luck!
 

NYSIOUXATC

Junior Member
Mar 6, 2009
135
0
16
Brookhaven
You're just an asshole...plain & simple. As already stated, nobody gets to choose where they go and the center washouts who are retained are the ones who have at least certified on some positions. You haven't certified on anything. No, sorry...Advanced ATC doesn't count. That's cute, though.

Everyone has waited a long time. You're not in any kind of unique position. Like I said, you're just an asshole who is getting advice from RPO's at the academy. Could you have cited a more useless source? Why don't you worry about getting in the door first before you start talking shit again?
I nominate you spades for the next President Of The United States. Brilliant statement you just gave there.
 

UNDgrad06

Epic Member
Dec 8, 2010
1,309
14
38
Peachtree City, GA
I would love for someone to get to a training review board and turn down an offer for a re direct just because they think someone else deserves a opportunity. Get real. They only offer re directs because you usually showed some sort skill or because you advanced to a certain stage, meaning you have some skills.

Not everyone can cut it at the busy places. Especially not at ZME, the mack daddy of all Centers.
 

rogersjf

Trusted Contributor
Mar 11, 2009
656
9
18
New Jersey
I cannot stress enough that the grading system in OKC is very flawed and which evaluator you get may affect your overall score at the academy. Point in case failing for sitting to close to the R-Side and being told no points were taken off by the grader, supervisor and teachers. Receiving your grade sheet under FOIA and seeing the points off which you would have passed with PRICELESS.

BTW FU Perry Ann
 

dreweepoo

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2012
189
1
18
I cannot stress enough that the grading system in OKC is very flawed and which evaluator you get may affect your overall score at the academy. Point in case failing for sitting to close to the R-Side and being told no points were taken off by the grader, supervisor and teachers. Receiving your grade sheet under FOIA and seeing the points off which you would have passed with PRICELESS.

BTW FU Perry Ann


You put yourself in that situation. You don't fail because you sit too close to the R-Side, you fail because you lost a bunch of points somewhere else. I understand the fact that you were told points would not be taken off, and then they were. I just hate it when people complain about failing by 1 point. It's a go or no go system, pass or fail. You fail because you lost X amount of points, not because you lost 1 for something stupid. Complaints is all I see. You don't lose or win the game on one play.
 

rogersjf

Trusted Contributor
Mar 11, 2009
656
9
18
New Jersey
You put yourself in that situation. You don't fail because you sit too close to the R-Side, you fail because you lost a bunch of points somewhere else. I understand the fact that you were told points would not be taken off, and then they were. I just hate it when people complain about failing by 1 point. It's a go or no go system, pass or fail. You fail because you lost X amount of points, not because you lost 1 for something stupid. Complaints is all I see. You don't lose or win the game on one play.
No I did fail for something stupid, sitting to close to the R-side was a 2pts deuction so (2x.22=.44 (total points) being that I failed .31, I did indeed fail for sitting to close.
 

GeorgeM

Trusted Member
Jun 18, 2008
393
0
16
CO
No I did fail for something stupid, sitting to close to the R-side was a 2pts deuction so (2x.22=.44 (total points) being that I failed .31, I did indeed fail for sitting to close.
Sounds to me like you failed because your rater didn't want to send a borderline controller to the center. Move on.