General PV Discussion

es7129

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Mar 15, 2009
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Re: What Exactly is a Performance Verification - PV?

Where'd you hear that? That seems high. En Routes are much better set up to accommodate the training surge than the high level terminals have been.
I read the article a few months ago, but I'll see if I can find it. It also stated NY was about 70%.
 

mbalunda

Epic Member
Jan 31, 2009
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Re: What Exactly is a Performance Verification - PV?

I read the article a few months ago, but I'll see if I can find it. It also stated NY was about 70%.
I don't buy that, or the 50% nationwide either.

At the most recent NATCA meet and greet they specifically addressed the enroute washout rate. They said Houston consistently has the highest washout rate of any center, and it's at about 52%. They said there weren't any others that were really even that close to Houston as far as washouts go, so there's no way it's 50% nationwide if Houston is the HIGHEST at 52%.
 

es7129

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Mar 15, 2009
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Re: What Exactly is a Performance Verification - PV?

I don't buy that, or the 50% nationwide either.

At the most recent NATCA meet and greet they specifically addressed the enroute washout rate. They said Houston consistently has the highest washout rate of any center, and it's at about 52%. They said there weren't any others that were really even that close to Houston as far as washouts go, so there's no way it's 50% nationwide if Houston is the HIGHEST at 52%.
Obviously your information is slightly more credible than an article on the interwebz. Thank you for the clarification.
 

Rosstafari

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Aug 17, 2008
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Re: What Exactly is a Performance Verification - PV?

I read the article a few months ago, but I'll see if I can find it. It also stated NY was about 70%.
Definitely interested in reading it if you happen to come across it again. Was it FAA or third party?

They said Houston consistently has the highest washout rate of any center, and it's at about 52%.
Wonder what it is about Houston. They've got oceanic, but so do a lot of places. Only major city they've got to deal with is Houston itself. The rest are class C and below, and even then, the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are NOLA, Austin and San Antonio. I guess there's a lot of MOAs in their part of Texas, but that doesn't seem like it'd be that big of a deal.
 

mbalunda

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Jan 31, 2009
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Re: What Exactly is a Performance Verification - PV?

Wonder what it is about Houston. They've got oceanic, but so do a lot of places. Only major city they've got to deal with is Houston itself. The rest are class C and below, and even then, the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are NOLA, Austin and San Antonio. I guess there's a lot of MOAs in their part of Texas, but that doesn't seem like it'd be that big of a deal.
Not really sure to be honest. My instructor ended his controlling career at ZHU. Him and 7 others transfered from Houston Hobby to ZHU, only 2 of them ended up checking out at ZHU. They rest washed out and went back to Hobby; and they were already veteran controllers. Not guys off the street with no knowledge or anything, so who knows.
 

es7129

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Mar 15, 2009
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Re: What Exactly is a Performance Verification - PV?

Definitely interested in reading it if you happen to come across it again. Was it FAA or third party?



Wonder what it is about Houston. They've got oceanic, but so do a lot of places. Only major city they've got to deal with is Houston itself. The rest are class C and below, and even then, the only ones I can think of off the top of my head are NOLA, Austin and San Antonio. I guess there's a lot of MOAs in their part of Texas, but that doesn't seem like it'd be that big of a deal.
It was 3rd party, I'd search but I'm honestly not invested enough to due so. I'd rather concede the point in your favor lol

If you happen to find some concrete numbers please post them.
 

barty

Trusted Member
Sep 25, 2008
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Re: What Exactly is a Performance Verification - PV?

I don't buy that, or the 50% nationwide either.

At the most recent NATCA meet and greet they specifically addressed the enroute washout rate. They said Houston consistently has the highest washout rate of any center, and it's at about 52%. They said there weren't any others that were really even that close to Houston as far as washouts go, so there's no way it's 50% nationwide if Houston is the HIGHEST at 52%.
Houston uses a different method for training than any other center in the country. You check out on the D side on a sector, then immediately train on the R side on the same sector. While it does get someone certified faster than the traditional method of training, according to a couple of folks who have transferred from there, it probably washes out a number of people who probably could have made it at another center.
 

mbalunda

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Jan 31, 2009
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Re: What Exactly is a Performance Verification - PV?

Houston uses a different method for training than any other center in the country. You check out on the D side on a sector, then immediately train on the R side on the same sector. While it does get someone certified faster than the traditional method of training, according to a couple of folks who have transferred from there, it probably washes out a number of people who probably could have made it at another center.
Other centers use the same method. It's called functional training, I know Chicago uses it, and I beleive one other center as well. Their trainees are much more successful at those facilities. One of my row instructors just came to the Academy from ZAU and had his last trainee reached CPC in only 13 months. I've got a friend in training there now and he's well on his way to reaching CPC in less than 2 years.

But that is the point of it, get rid of the folks who won't be able to do the job sooner so they can focus on those will be successful. Why spend 1.5 years training someone on D side when they can't work the R side anyways. For whatever reason the ZHU trainees struggle while others have been doing better with it.
 

barty

Trusted Member
Sep 25, 2008
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Re: What Exactly is a Performance Verification - PV?

Other centers use the same method. It's called functional training, I know Chicago uses it, and I beleive one other center as well. Their trainees are much more successful at those facilities. One of my row instructors just came to the Academy from ZAU and had his last trainee reached CPC in only 13 months. I've got a friend in training there now and he's well on his way to reaching CPC in less than 2 years.
I'd just be happy to have D side class date right now. Yeah ERAM.

But that is the point of it, get rid of the folks who won't be able to do the job sooner so they can focus on those will be successful. Why spend 1.5 years training someone on D side when they can't work the R side anyways.
There is a lot that is learned by spending time on sector, even as a D side. You see patterns in traffic and pick up techniques from the CPCs on how to deal with the traffic. You lose that when you try to force someone through that quickly. Sure, it benefits those who have some natural ability to do the job or are otherwise able to pick up the skills rapidly, but I think it is a bit far reaching to say that someone who washes out in such a program would have never been able to work the R side.

For whatever reason the ZHU trainees struggle while others have been doing better with it.
There are certainly a number of other facilities who have more and more complex traffic that have a better success rate, so there's got to be something else at work there. Maybe a lot of the wash outs are coming from a couple of areas, and the success rate elsewhere in the building is much better. Who knows?
 

TonedeAF

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Oct 31, 2009
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Re: What Exactly is a Performance Verification - PV?

Not really sure to be honest. My instructor ended his controlling career at ZHU. Him and 7 others transfered from Houston Hobby to ZHU, only 2 of them ended up checking out at ZHU. They rest washed out and went back to Hobby; and they were already veteran controllers. Not guys off the street with no knowledge or anything, so who knows.
Your instructor is now my instructor, how about that!
 

eqfan592

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Mar 28, 2010
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Re: What Exactly is a Performance Verification - PV?

There is a lot that is learned by spending time on sector, even as a D side. You see patterns in traffic and pick up techniques from the CPCs on how to deal with the traffic. You lose that when you try to force someone through that quickly. Sure, it benefits those who have some natural ability to do the job or are otherwise able to pick up the skills rapidly, but I think it is a bit far reaching to say that someone who washes out in such a program would have never been able to work the R side.
I agree 100%.
 

mbalunda

Epic Member
Jan 31, 2009
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Re: What Exactly is a Performance Verification - PV?

Your instructor is now my instructor, how about that!
Make sure you stand next to him...and then ask the rest of the class if anyone has seen Paul.

Of course that only works if you aren't legally a midget...like Paul.

Who are the other instructors? I wonder if the others are the same as well.
 

TonedeAF

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Oct 31, 2009
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Paul switched to tower, so I doubt the other instructors were the same.

Did my LC TWR PV on Friday. All of the tower PVs had the same thing in common. Fast movers overtaking slow guys on the downwind. All you have to do is use extend downwind, upwind (if you catch it in time), make short approach, or right 360 and you'll be fine. If you let it develop it is going to bite you in the butt. They say there are 12 different scenarios but my class only worked like 3 or 4 different ones. Maybe they use 4 for one class and 4 with another and alternate them. I also suspect that different sets of PVs have different focuses. This is all speculation though so take it how you would take anything.

Our class had one retake. Our sister class had 2 retakes. I don't know what their overall outcome was when all was said and done.
 

jalvis81

Senior Member
May 4, 2009
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Paul switched to tower, so I doubt the other instructors were the same.

Did my LC TWR PV on Friday. All of the tower PVs had the same thing in common. Fast movers overtaking slow guys on the downwind. All you have to do is use extend downwind, upwind (if you catch it in time), make short approach, or right 360 and you'll be fine. If you let it develop it is going to bite you in the butt. They say there are 12 different scenarios but my class only worked like 3 or 4 different ones. Maybe they use 4 for one class and 4 with another and alternate them. I also suspect that different sets of PVs have different focuses. This is all speculation though so take it how you would take anything.

Our class had one retake. Our sister class had 2 retakes. I don't know what their overall outcome was when all was said and done.
you forgot what might be the most important tool to use if needed... "GO AROUND."