Let's Dig a Little Deeper into This New Rule.

SuperMario

Junior Member
Apr 10, 2012
127
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Hello all, first i would like to start off by saying that I know people are going to agree and disagree about the new rule for ATC hiring. I just wanted to divulge a little deeper into this and sort of vent it out and talk about possible hopes for CTI graduates who have taken the ATSAT.

First of all I would like to say that I do feel that it is unfair to us CTI students who have taken the time and money to accomplish the FAA'S requirements to become an Air Traffic Controller, you can tell me that "life is unfair" and to "stop whining like a baby" and all of that is welcome. All I am saying is that I know we weren't guaranteed anything at CTI school, but we did all go into it knowing that we had to graduate from school, get a Well Qualified score on the ATSAT and also get referred to the FAA from our school.

The reason why me and i'm sure thousands of other CTI graduates are upset is because now our completion of school and well qualified ATSAT score isn't going to be grandfathered in. They should at least give us priority over off the street hiring. It only makes sense right? Why can't we just keep our ATSAT scores and not have to take this "Biographical Questionnaire"? Let us apply to the bid in February and go from there. I know people who have been waiting 2-3 years for a bid to open up and now they have to go through this ALL over again? To be clear, the situation isn't "not fair", the situation is "not right". And what I mean by that is that we(CTI grads) should be honored to what we signed up for.

Lastly, I just want to divulge a little deeper into their new February announcement rules specifically for CTI grads, and no I am not trying to be close minded to VRA's or anyone else like that, but this is the situation I am in right now and would like to get a voice from CTI students primarily, but all voices ARE welcome. It states that all applicants must take and pass both assessments to be considered for employment. But here is the loop hole that I am thinking about... You know how in the past that if you take the ATSAT twice they keep your highest score? Is that going to be the same rule for people in that position? Most of us CTI grads have only taken it once, so is this good news for us? Something we won't have to worry about as much? And don't come back to me and say that "You shouldn't be scared of taking it again" because I am not. We are getting put down here and all I am saying is that we deserve what we scored on that test.

If you want to read further into the "Barrier Analysis" report

ORIGINAL SOURCE : https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/acr/eeo_affirm_program/

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/acr/eeo_affirm_program/media/Barrier_Analysis_Report.pdf
https://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/headquarters_offices/acr/eeo_affirm_program/media/Extension_to_Barrier_Analysis_Report.pdf

it pretty much sums up the fact that there is something "CLEARLY WRONG" with the ATSAT. And their reasoning behind that is because they did research where "African Americans, Asians, Mexican/Latinos" were scoring LOWER than people of other descent/nationality/race.

Look around you, look at our lawyers, look at our doctors, look at the CEO's of major companies, you will see that there is different races occupying these professions. The thing that these minorities who say that there is "Something clearly wrong with the ATSAT" is that they need to study for it or have the natural aptitude for it. Simple as that. You get what you want in life by hard work and dedication, and if that means you have to study then so be it. There are no free handouts in life.

Point in case is that CTI's should be grandfathered in given the fact they have graduated and taken the ATSAT.


EDIT - I just talked to Oklahoma and they informed me that the previous ATSAT scores WILL NOT be used for good. Previous ATSAT scores mean NOTHING.
 
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SirMario

Senior Analyst
Apr 15, 2010
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Something to actually think about, when it comes to scoring, you are right when you take the ATSAT twice, your highest score is kept. That is a good question to ask during the tele conference...

Whatever you feel about the ATSAT is not relevant, this is a good question though...
 

SirMario

Senior Analyst
Apr 15, 2010
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PS there is only room for one Mario on this thread, please change your namE!
 

SuperMario

Junior Member
Apr 10, 2012
127
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Thanks for the reply, lets just hang on until we get more information. And I'm never changing my name hahaha
 

SirMario

Senior Analyst
Apr 15, 2010
809
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[video=youtube;mmLRTVYgEq4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmLRTVYgEq4[/video]
 

SuperMario

Junior Member
Apr 10, 2012
127
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HAHAHAHA!!! Thanks for making my day man, a great laugh into the new year with this unfortunate news is greatly appreciated!
 

Stinger

Epic Member
May 24, 2009
1,559
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I was just looking into this too about the AT-SAT. I posted into another thread because this wasn't started yet when I was digging around the Barrier report.

http://www.stuckmic.com/atc-employment-general-discussion/24991-i-still-have-no-reason-believe-i-wasted-4-years-aeronautics-cti-degree-why-read-5.html#post262957

Seriously, how is it a problem that whites are getting better scores on an aptitude test that is supposed to measure your ability to be a controller? Going by the results of the test, it should be the white males that make up the majority of the controllers.
 

GS3k

Trusted Member
Oct 24, 2013
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I think that the problem with the AT-SAT is more the fact that so many people are passing and so many people are scoring well-qualified.

The fact that certain ethnic groups are scoring higher or lower isn't necessarily a barrier to employment in the sense that everyone gets to take the same test, the barrier may very well be the quality of test taker.

Regardless, your premise is flawed. C.T.I. students do have a chance to apply, you get to apply to the public announcement along with everyone else. If you're scared that you won't be able to cut it that's on you.
 

ajmezz

Epic Member
Apr 8, 2010
1,811
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The announcement says, "The existing testing process has been updated. The revised testing process is comprised of a biographical questionnaire (completed as part of the application process) and the cognitive portion of the AT-SAT." I've never taken the atsat, but isn't the whole test considered cognitive? They could be changing the atsat as a whole for all anybody knows, making your previous scores null & void anyways. Everyone should probably just wait and see what happens instead of blowing a damn gasket speculating so much shit.
 

GS3k

Trusted Member
Oct 24, 2013
410
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The announcement says, "The existing testing process has been updated. The revised testing process is comprised of a biographical questionnaire (completed as part of the application process) and the cognitive portion of the AT-SAT." I've never taken the atsat, but isn't the whole test considered cognitive? They could be changing the atsat as a whole for all anybody knows, making your previous scores null & void anyways. Everyone should probably just wait and see what happens instead of blowing a damn gasket speculating so much shit.
You're definitely right about that last sentence.

Apparently there's an alternate version of the AT-SAT that was developed in case they ever feel the original was compromised.

Maybe the "cognitive" portion of the AT-SAT varies by race! /troll
 

SuperMario

Junior Member
Apr 10, 2012
127
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My point is that we DO NOT KNOW what we are getting into with these new assesments, the only thing that worries me is the biographical questionnaire, its obvious that this questionnaire is for the minorities to pass and probably wont give CTI students the edge they deserve because we are considered "white". I know we have the chance to apply but if the FAA wants to keep their awesome safety record they should hire CTI students who at least know how an airplane flies in the air... These OTS people probably dont even know what Bernoulli's principle is...
 

nhstadt

Epic Member
Mar 24, 2011
2,980
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south "Murica
My point is that we DO NOT KNOW what we are getting into with these new assesments, the only thing that worries me is the biographical questionnaire, its obvious that this questionnaire is for the minorities to pass and probably wont give CTI students the edge they deserve because we are considered "white". I know we have the chance to apply but if the FAA wants to keep their awesome safety record they should hire CTI students who at least know how an airplane flies in the air... These OTS people probably dont even know what Bernoulli's principle is...
Your knowledge of physics in no way has anything to do with separating aircraft. That's all that matters.... can you separate airplanes? its not like Raoul, Jesus and LaKeisha are just going to be given jobs based on the color of their skin. They still need to meet the same qualifications as you (ATSAT, pass the academy/facility checkout, etc.)
 

GS3k

Trusted Member
Oct 24, 2013
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I also think that one of the problems they identified was the fact that for all of the purported advantages of the C.T.I. it was still material that they were supposed to teach their trainees anyways.
 

Stinger

Epic Member
May 24, 2009
1,559
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Your knowledge of physics in no way has anything to do with separating aircraft. That's all that matters.... can you separate airplanes? its not like Raoul, Jesus and LaKeisha are just going to be given jobs based on the color of their skin. They still need to meet the same qualifications as you (ATSAT, pass the academy/facility checkout, etc.)
Except that the Barrier report says that every section of the ATSAT is a barrier to everyone except whites. Also the use of the highly qualified band above 85% creates diversity problems apparently.
 

nhstadt

Epic Member
Mar 24, 2011
2,980
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south "Murica
NHS shut up and go to your facility...
I've been trying to stay out of these whiney CTI threads, but.... every once and again, someone says something that blows my mind..... saying you need knowledge of aerodynamics and physics to control is like saying you need an ASE mechanics certification to drive a car.
 

Stinger

Epic Member
May 24, 2009
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It doesn't hurt at all. I'd rather have my car driven by mechanics only if I had a choice.
 

GS3k

Trusted Member
Oct 24, 2013
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Except that the Barrier report says that every section of the ATSAT is a barrier to everyone except whites. Also the use of the highly qualified band above 85% creates diversity problems apparently.
That's just one small part of the barrier analysis and honestly probably the least compelling argument from a statistically objective point of view.