Military change to Departure Question

j_time41

Senior Analyst
Nov 17, 2008
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why am i not correct when i switch a beechjet to departure when I clear him for takeoff??

.65 says switch all military when you clear them except cargo and transport type aircraft

A beechjet is not classified as a transport or cargo.

Granted, and military that trains in them will go on to be a transport pilot or cargo pilot, but a beechjet is not. If they were in say a B1, I would obviously not switch them until they are at the normal point airborne.
 
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Roddy_Piper

Resident Knucklehead
Jun 15, 2008
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you would be correct in switching a BE40/T1 on the runway. your trainer would be wrong in saying otherwise.

that being said...my personal technique is switching aircraft that have more than one pilot sitting at the controls to departure off the departure end. a T1 does not have a seating arrangement like the fighters and certain trainers (T38, T6, etc). for that reason i personally would switch a BE40/T1 off departure end. just a technique that i ultimately acknowledge is wrong based on the .65.

ask your trainer if he's teaching technique or does he really think the .65 says to switch a beechjet off the end of the runway
 

irishcarbomb

Epic Member
Dec 3, 2008
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either way seems to me like you've got the wrong attitude...do what your trainer wants, its his ticket. if you want to do different once you're certified then go for it.
 

Radium

Epic Member
Jan 14, 2009
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Your trainer is always right, unless lives are at stake.
Until you are checked out, then you can call him on all his bullshit.

And if you are gonna call him out, do it in private and a nicely as possible. Remember the goal is to get DONE, not washed out over something little.
 

MikeATC

Retired FAA, NATCA Member
Apr 3, 2009
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Actually, the part of the .65 that refers to switching a military aircraft to departure after clearing them for takeoff is in reference to "Single Piloted Aircraft" like fighter aircraft. The reason behind this was in most older fighters the pilot had to reach down to turn a dial or push a button to change frequencies.

I as an OJTI would tell you not to switch a T1 to departure after issuing the takeoff clearance.
 

j_time41

Senior Analyst
Nov 17, 2008
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Actually, the part of the .65 that refers to switching a military aircraft to departure after clearing them for takeoff is in reference to "Single Piloted Aircraft" like fighter aircraft. The reason behind this was in most older fighters the pilot had to reach down to turn a dial or push a button to change frequencies.

I as an OJTI would tell you not to switch a T1 to departure after issuing the takeoff clearance.
Please tell me where it says that. I know it USED to say that, but it can not find it anymore after they updated it.
 

STL2CVG

Senior Analyst
Feb 2, 2009
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3-9-3 seems to lay it out and have all the answers you are looking for. But it does not mention to what MikeATC suggested.
 

WatchThis

Trusted Contributor
Apr 29, 2010
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We spend more time deciding on who's going on the run for food and what we're going to eat. Besides that, just do what your instructor is telling you to do. Personally, I would not switch a military Beechjet on the ground but that's just me. The pilot might want to fly an F16 but he aint in one yet.
 

redwing76

Rookie
Jun 20, 2008
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.65 states cargo,transport and civil. seemed to leave that one out. and keep fighting with your trainer and show him up, good for your career
 

redwing76

Rookie
Jun 20, 2008
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like i said before that line about civil a/c, your comment about the cherokee was intended to mock your trainer, excellant move, keep up the good work, air force needs security police also
 
A

atcpookie

Guest
Your trainer is right in not having you not switch them on the ground. However, he is wrong in saying that it’s because they are “training” to be a cargo. I don’t care if they are flying a military glider and training to be an F16 pilot. You do it based on the aircraft.

If I were training you I would also have you switch the beechjet after departure and here is why;

1. The .65 says “departing IFR military turboprop/turbojet aircraft (except transport and cargo types)” ----------------- the beechjet is neither turboprop or turbojet. The beechjet is a turbofan. Baring that, the argument against this point is… the A10 is also a turbofan and you must switch them on the ground.


2. The indisputable argument is that in the .65 on page A-1 you will see a note that a “*” indicates which aircraft are (or are to be treated as) a turbojet. These are all the aircraft that are required to be switched on the ground when they are IFR. The beechjet does not have such a mark but the A10 does.

Hope this helps.

To all those looking for “Single-Piloted” It was removed from the rules several years ago. The only spot you’ll find it is in reference to low flying helicopters and in the note on page A-1
 

redwing76

Rookie
Jun 20, 2008
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guys it is very clear, .65 section 3-9-3 sub section 3b1 after takeoff mabout 1/2 mile civil,military transport and cargo type, case clsd. to the trainee, keep trying to show up your trainer would be my advice
 

maddog68

Rookie
Jan 19, 2010
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I would say, its ok to ask this question to the OJTI after the training session is over and ask for clarification because of your understanding of the .65. But every time I had a smart ass who thought he knew it all he became the permanent chow runner until I could get him off my crew. No one wants some one like you in their crew. WHEN AND IF you get a CTO then you can enter into discussions about interpretation of the .65. Until then, I suggest you sit bac and learn what your instructor is teaching. Not trying to say you are wrong in what you are saying, but we only are hearing your side of the equation. But I have been in both pair of boots and getting checked out is the name of the game.
 

Mr.Texas

Mod
Jun 15, 2008
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Ok J, I'm going to school you, but let me start with a facility FACT:
People have washed out of lubbock....3 in the last 2 years! 5 in the last 3 years!

Now, change your attitude right now. I'm not sure which trainer this happened with but I will find out. The explanation you were given may have been incorrect, but the message was correct! You DO NOT change BE40's to departure on the ground..... <---- will be followed with facts.

You need to humble yourself and feel blessed to be in the FAA with the opportunity to call yourself an Air Traffic Controller ONE DAY! It's so funny how you can get on here and call out a CPC when you're just a Dev with a thousand questions you don't have the answers to.

Reading a para in the .65 involves much more than that, it will sometimes reference other manuals, notes and other para's and even tell you your facility SOP's will trumph the .65 in certain cases. So pump your brakes, you are not a .65 master.

Let's start with the para in question:
3-9-3. DEPARTURE CONTROL
INSTRUCTIONS
Inform departing IFR, SVFR, VFR aircraft receiving
radar service, and TRSA VFR aircraft of the
following:
a. Before takeoff.
1. Issue the appropriate departure control
frequency and beacon code. The departure control
frequency may be omitted if a SID has been or will be
assigned and the departure control frequency is
published on the SID.
PHRASEOLOGYDEPARTURE
FREQUENCY (frequency), SQUAWK
(code).
2. Inform all departing IFR military turboprop/
turbojet aircraft
(except transport and cargo types) to
change to departure control frequency. If the local
controller has departure frequency override, transmit
urgent instructions on this frequency. If the override
capability does not exist, transmit urgent instructions
on the emergency frequency.
PHRASEOLOGYCHANGE
TO DEPARTURE.
3. USAF. USAF control towers are authorized
to inform all departing IFR military transport/cargo
type aircraft operating in formation flight to change
to departure control frequency before takeoff.
b. After takeoff.
1. When the aircraft is about 1/2 mile beyond the
runway end, instruct civil aircraft, and military
transport, and cargo types to contact departure
control, provided further communication with you is
not required.

2. Do not request departing military turboprop/
turbojet aircraft (except transport and cargo types) to
make radio frequency or radar beacon changes before
the aircraft reaches 2,500 feet above the surface.


......THIS WILL ALL MAKE SENSE SOON!
Notice 3.B and B1....After takeoff and civil aircraft!!!! Ding Ding Ding the BE40 is a Civil Aircraft...say it ain't so!!!! No way! Yes way!!
Even the FAA says it's a civil aircraft.
Reference here: http://www.fly.faa.gov/ASDI/asdidocs/aircraft_types.txt
Reference Legend here: http://www.fly.faa.gov/ASDI/asdidocs/aircraft_types_definitions.txt

Notice field "5" for the BE40 is a number 5, now go to the legend.
So there's no confusion BE40 is field 1, L(Light ICAO) is field 2, - is field 3, L is field 4, and 5 is field 5..... in casse you dont want to click the legend link I will paste it followed by the BE40 file.
12/28/05

Field Definitions for 'aircraft_types' file.



Field 1: Aircraft type name
Field 2: S,L,H Small, Large, Heavy (ICAO L/LIGHT, M/MEDIUM, H/HEAVY)
Field 3: M, - Military, Not military (civilian)
Field 4: L, A, S, H Land, Amphibian, Seaplane, Helicopter
Field 5: 0-9 Category -
0 - Unknown
1 - Single Piston Prop
2 - Multi Piston Prop
3 - Single Turbo Prop
4 - Multi Turbo Prop
5 - Civilian Jet
6 - Fighter Jet (military)
7 - Large Military Jet
8 - Special Turbo Jet
9 - Helicopter

Field 6: 1-8 Number of engines
Field 7: J, T, P Jet, Turboprop, Prop (Piston)
Field 8: Climb rate
Field 9: Descent rate
Field 10: Model
Field 11: Manufacturer
Field 12: FAA comments

BE40 L - L 5 2 J 3300 2200 Beechjet 400/Hawker Beech/Raytheon


Here is a little background(NOTE) straight out of the .65 on why those turbojet/turboprops get it on the ground.
NOTE:
It is known that the mental distraction and the inadvertent
movement of aircraft controls resulting from the pilot's
turning, reaching, or leaning to change frequencies can
induce spatial disorientation (vertigo).
 

WatchThis

Trusted Contributor
Apr 29, 2010
561
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Arizona
The above information is interesting and pretty much closes the deal. Beyond that, students really need to develop an intuition that this type of aircraft does not need to be switched on the ground based on it's underlying type (civil business jet). There are many other cases where you have to go beyond basic rules (FAST-T? in this case) and see the underlying meaning behind what we are required to do. When controllers are standing (or sitting) at the control position, you don't have time to run to the bookshelf and many answers aren't in there anyway. These things need to become second nature.
 

atcguruaf

Rico Suave
Jan 4, 2009
1,377
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Right here
I wasn't going to go into THAT much detail...haha. Nice one though. I just hope he/she doesn't go searching for a CPC or the developmental. It would be nice if these forums were kept somewhat private, in a manner which a developmental doesn't feel intimidated when asking a question.

I know, they should never be afraid to ask. But let's face it, some trainers are pricks (I am somewhat of a jerk myself) and don't want to do the footwork for trainees (understood). I learned by doing, reading, etc., so I'm a jerk because I don't think I should have to spoon feed trainees. However, if someone in training doesn't feel comfortable with the answer given, and queries further, then they shouldn't be punished or mistreated for it.

Mr. Texas, I love your answer, I really do. Too many people are sensitive and need to get a thick skin. Kudos to you, sir. But I hope it's not a head hunt you're on...

As to the developmental, perhaps the manner in which you asked the question was wrong. Instead of saying "why am I getting yelled at..." then making a point to say "you switch...", just ask "Does a BE40 get switched to departure on the ground or in the air? I'm having trouble understanding the reference in 3-9"

Something generic like that. You were obviously incorrect on this one. But as others have said before, you do as you're told, and that's about it. You don't like it, quit. It's just how it works. It would be as if a pilot was questioning your every transmission. There's no time to explain everything. Split second decisions need to be thought of and complied with day in day out. So even if you THINK you're right, you do as you're told until you're checked out. Feel free to keep asking questions on here, however keeping them generic in nature and not making it known that you're a developmental may help with the answers of "you're always wrong and your trainer is always right".
 

Mr.Texas

Mod
Jun 15, 2008
423
0
16
Never that, no head hunt. The trainer needs to know the real reason instead of the somewhat lame reason "he" gave J. J should've gone to his training team or quality assurance for further information, instead of trying to seem like he was ready to battle this one out. J knows I will answer to the best of my knowledge anything he needs. J will be fine as long as he isn't trying to "shine" on his trainers.