NEST

JamesEarlJones

Senior Member
Jan 9, 2014
258
17
18
I watched someone wash out of a level 5 up/down, and I sincerely believe that they didn't make it due to lack of consistent traffic and training opportunities (the facility was extremely seasonal).

A lot of truth in this statement. There isn't any traffic at the lower level up/downs. I visited a level 5 up/down about a month ago and I watched their rush with a Cherokee in the pattern. I won't name facilities but I was blown away by a number of things.

First, I saw a local controller make the Cherokee number two behind an IFR Citation doing 180 kts on a ten mile final when the Cherokee was mid field on a 9k foot runway. I don't remember being this tentative ever. However, my guess is she isn't used to mixing pattern work in with jets. Second, they were in the middle of an IFR departure push. They had 5 fedex caravans and a fedex jet go out with a couple of Dash-8's. It was seriously like 8 aircraft.... then it was dead. They acted like it was LAX. I'm like when is the push lol....

It is what it is....
 

StuSEL

Moderator
Aug 23, 2009
1,014
10
38
You know where.
I get a laugh out of flying the pattern at some low level up/downs. When it's been slow for them for a period of time, those 5 mile downwind extensions are typical.

Meanwhile at the level 4 and 5 towers, they won't start adjusting a pattern until that jet is 3-4 miles out.
 

Imapilot

Rookie
Jul 29, 2011
33
0
6
1. I see your point. If you start out at a center and wash... you may end up at a level 8 tower even though you haven't proved shit.

2. Was it radar you washed on? Because the up/down towers are slower in the tower compared to stand alone towers of the same level. You might be better off in a 5.

3. Me personally, if i wash and they give me a list... I am going to the lowest level and slowest facility regardless of where it is....only to save my career...and even if it was a 4.

trying not to get off topic in this thread but I can't send you a PM as your inbox is full
 

Imapilot

Rookie
Jul 29, 2011
33
0
6
It sucks man but its probably the fairest way. You didn't make it at a 7, now you think the FAA should give you a try at another 6 or 7 and possibly waste another year of you not working. If those other facilities are so gung ho on picking you up, then go to a 5, check out in like a few months and ERR to one of those places.

Plus if you would have started a a 7-12 as your first spot then you probably wouldn't have made it and could possibly have been fired. So be lucky with what you've got.
the biggest loss for me besides the career stagnation is going to be loosing my salary. I was able to get to my level seven on the 2012 contractual raise so I was able to lock in CPC pay. Which was good since with out it I was taking a pay cut to come here(CIP and locality at last tower) . With I was breaking even. I was one of the academy classes that got to pay my way through OKC(no per diem) and then white book and level five pay for the first four years. Needless to say my TSP is not looking very good right now.

That 2012 thing was the one little hooray in my career that finally made living comfortable. An ERR or BID would have at least protected some of my paycheck.
 

Imapilot

Rookie
Jul 29, 2011
33
0
6
If you get picked up on a BID or ERR prior to becoming a training failure, do you keep the half raise you received or do you go back to your old pay?
As a CPC-IT at least you should keep it or at least go inside the new facilities band. We had a guy ERR out of here before they could wash him and he actually got a raise going back to a higher locality with CIP
 

kramer

Newcomer
Apr 4, 2015
2
0
1
Ive been told if your not a training failure and you get picked upon a bid you won't loose pay.
Anyone have any experience with this?
Also, what if you err as a developmental (d2 at level 11 To a 5)...the red book says your pay falls into the lowest developmental band. When you make CPC do you go to the bottom of cpc band or keep your old d2 pay?

And if you err before your training is terminated, does that count as a failure?
 

lowapproach

Epic Member
Oct 29, 2010
1,316
33
48
WV
Transfer Pay Setting

  1. CPC Transfer: Once a controller has achieved CPC status in the first terminal/en route facility, that status is permanent. For a CPC, pay is set as follows:

    1. Upon transfer to a higher ATC Level Facility, Basic Pay is increased to the minimum of the new CPC pay band, or is increased by six percent (6%), whichever is greater, for transfers to a higher level facility up to the level 10 facility. Employees transferring to level 11 or 12 facilities from a level 4 through 10 facility, Basic Pay is increased to the minimum of the new CPC pay band or is increased by eight percent (8%), whichever is greater, not to exceed the new band maximum.
    2. Transfers from an ATC-11 to an ATC-12, Base Pay is increased to the minimum of the new CPC pay band or is increased by six percent (6%), whichever is greater, not to exceed the new band maximum.
    3. One-half (1/2) of the increase is paid upon initial transfer to the new facility; the other one-half (1/2) is paid when fully certified in the new facility. If the employee’s current Basic Pay is above the pay band maximum at the new facility, the employee retains his/her pay with no additional increase to Basic Pay.
    4. Upon voluntary transfer to a lower ATC level facility, Basic Pay is set at the current Basic Pay if that rate falls within the new CPC pay band. If current Basic Pay is higher than the top of the new band, Basic Pay is set at the top of the CPC pay band.
    5. Upon involuntary transfer, through no fault of the employee, to a lower ATC Level facility, Basic Pay is unchanged and the employee shall be granted pay retention in accordance with this Agreement.
    6. A CPC who transfers into a new facility is a CPC-in-Training (CPC-IT).
    7. A CPC-IT who does not achieve facility certification in the new facility shall have their pay set as follows:

      1. A CPC-IT who is unsuccessful prior to becoming fully certified at the new facility will have their Basic Pay set as though the employee never left the facility where he/she was fully certified, effective on the reporting date to the new facility. When assigned to another ATC level facility, pay will then be set as described above for a CPC transfer.
      2. If the employee is placed in a lower level facility than where the employee was previously certified, Basic Pay will be set as though they never left their original facility; however, pay shall not exceed the top of the CPC pay band for the employee’s new facility/area.

    Note: Pay setting for mutual reassignment and hardship transfers are covered under the provisions of Section 6C of this Article.
  2. Developmental Controller Transfer:

    1. Upon voluntary transfer to a higher-level facility, Basic Pay is unchanged. Future pay increases are made in accordance with successful progression through the developmental stages and Section 5.
    2. Upon voluntary transfer to a lower level facility, Basic Pay is set at current Basic Pay if that pay falls within the pay band of the same developmental stage of the lower level facility, up to the pay band maximum. If the same developmental stage does not exist at the new facility, employee’s pay is set at the lowest available developmental stage at the new facility not to exceed the developmental pay band maximum. Future pay increases are made in accordance with successful progression through the developmental stages and Section 5.
    3. Upon transfer to the same level facility, Basic Pay is unchanged. Future pay increases are made in accordance with successful progression through the developmental stages and Section 5.
    4. A developmental controller that transferred to a new facility that does not achieve area/facility certification and is assigned a lower level facility shall have their pay set at the same developmental stage percentage of the lower level facility’s minimum developmental stage. If the same developmental stage does not exist at the new facility, the employee’s pay is set at the lowest available developmental stage at the new facility, and pay may not exceed the developmental pay band maximum. Future pay increases are made in accordance with successful progression through the developmental stages and Section 5.
    5. Upon involuntary transfer, through no fault of the employee, to a lower Facility Level, Basic Pay is unchanged and the employee shall be granted pay retention in accordance with this Agreement.
 

Imapilot

Rookie
Jul 29, 2011
33
0
6
thats the key... you were never unsuccessful until your sup terminates your training. you are just looking for a transfer.

BUT I have a feeling this is all going away soon. With the changes in ERR's and District Managers on the lookout for people trying to bid out of training failure I think they are catching on to people trying to save there pay.
 

duranme

Senior Analyst
Nov 3, 2009
920
13
18
BUR
thats the key... you were never unsuccessful until your sup terminates your training. you are just looking for a transfer.

BUT I have a feeling this is all going away soon. With the changes in ERR's and District Managers on the lookout for people trying to bid out of training failure I think they are catching on to people trying to save there pay.
Sups can't terminate training, only suspend.
 

peterpumpkin

Newcomer
Mar 29, 2011
13
0
1
I recently got my results from NEST. I have 4 cto's. 2 military and 2 working for the DoD, for a total of 13 years experience. I applied to the FAA on a terminal bid and was selected for NCT, but was later changed to ZOA. I washed out on my first D-side and went to the NEST. They decided to retain me at lvl 5 or below type 1 towers. Apparently they do not consider any experience that is not FAA. The worst part is that I requested TX or OH and was offered SCK, traverse city, or crystal MN.
 

cali

Senior Member
Mar 29, 2015
279
0
16
I recently got my results from NEST. I have 4 cto's. 2 military and 2 working for the DoD, for a total of 13 years experience. I applied to the FAA on a terminal bid and was selected for NCT, but was later changed to ZOA. I washed out on my first D-side and went to the NEST. They decided to retain me at lvl 5 or below type 1 towers. Apparently they do not consider any experience that is not FAA. The worst part is that I requested TX or OH and was offered SCK, traverse city, or crystal MN.
What NEST board were you on? I washed out of center on my first two d sides as well, with prior military and contract cto's. I was was told I was on the 10/28/15 NEST board but I'm starting to wonder why I haven't heard anything yet and it seems for other people it isn't taking as long.
 

Giveway

Rookie
Dec 4, 2015
28
0
1
Yes.... there are plenty of LVL 5 towers.... ILG, PNE, ELM, BGR, BGM, AVP, ERI .... that's just off the top of my head.
 

peterpumpkin

Newcomer
Mar 29, 2011
13
0
1
What NEST board were you on? I washed out of center on my first two d sides as well, with prior military and contract cto's. I was was told I was on the 10/28/15 NEST board but I'm starting to wonder why I haven't heard anything yet and it seems for other people it isn't taking as long.
My paperwork was submitted mid November. Got the results dec 15th