New Contract

MJ0730

Trusted Member
Mar 8, 2010
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pointsixtyfive.com
for us at an up/down, the CIC in the tracon always gets it, since they're in charge of everyone, even if they are the only one in the tracon. The cic in the tower only gets it if they are not the only person in the tower. Im guessing now, if you're cic in an area (ie signed on to a CIC position, regardless of where or how many people), you will get it?
 

wxdude

Senior Member
Jun 5, 2015
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for us at an up/down, the CIC in the tracon always gets it, since they're in charge of everyone, even if they are the only one in the tracon. The cic in the tower only gets it if they are not the only person in the tower. Im guessing now, if you're cic in an area (ie signed on to a CIC position, regardless of where or how many people), you will get it?
That's how I understood it, if your signed on as a cic, you get paid as a cic. No questions asked.

Sent from my XT1049 using Tapatalk
 

JumperBones

Reft crosed trafficah
Dec 22, 2008
427
3
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Too sixah reft
That's what I thought, but then the guy in the Q&A asked about this specifically, and whoever was answering the question did not agree. He said that it would be determined locally when you have to sign on to CIC, but that "If you're signed on to CIC, you get paid for CIC." It was a little confusing and the phone was having issues at that point, I guess we'll just have to wait and see if they can clarify it in the FAQs.
Yeah, I heard that too. But here, the most common issue is we're made to sign off of CIC (which was previously already open at this point) once everybody else vacates the facility - but you're still responsible for the dash 4, so if there's any laser event, MOR etc, guess what you're doing? CIC business. If you're working CIC, you get paid for it, which in my mind is as it should be. With less people in the facility, I potentially have a lot more tasks to do if our law enforcement helos are feeling frisky that night. Which, of course doesn't happen until after everybody leaves.

I heard all that 7210.3 biz they were muttering about, and yeah hopefully this gets clarified in the FAQs.

MJ, what was repeated over and over was that if you're performing CIC, you will be paid for it, period. The trick seems to be you have to be signed on in the ART.
 

Stinger

Epic Member
May 24, 2009
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for us at an up/down, the CIC in the tracon always gets it, since they're in charge of everyone, even if they are the only one in the tracon. The cic in the tower only gets it if they are not the only person in the tower. Im guessing now, if you're cic in an area (ie signed on to a CIC position, regardless of where or how many people), you will get it?
My previous facility was an up/down. Supervisor was either in the tower, or in an office. So the supervisor was in charge of everything, unless they were in the office, then either ground or local or signed on as CIC in the ART. Downstairs in the tracon, usually only one person, so not signed on as CIC. When training was happening on radar, we needed another person that could be radar CIC.

Current facility, supervisor is always downstairs in the tracon and in charge. Ground and Local upstairs, CIC is usually ground. When it goes to one person in the tower and everyone else is radar, the tower person still gets on CIC in the ART. Never really questioned it.
 

RobertB

Senior Analyst
Aug 18, 2008
869
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Did you not read the other posts?

Congress/Presidential determined standard government raise in Jan, 1.6% raise in July, and this Aug a one time 1% "signing bonus" for all BUE.
The original post said 1% pay raise in January and the 1.6% next pay check which we were already going to receive. Based upon that information, it sounded like an awful deal!

Hell, so we are scheduled and guaranteed 1.6% each year for the next six years each June. We aren't guaranteed a 1.6% each January. So we are basically only guaranteed 10.6% over six years (9.6% over six years plus a 1% "signing bonus." That doesn't even keep up with the governmental projections for inflation!
Delta's pilots union just rejected a 22% pay increase over three years...
 
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Ramstar13

Trusted Member
Dec 2, 2008
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Mexico City
The original post said 1% pay raise in January and the 1.6% next pay check which we were already going to receive. Based upon that information, it sounded like an awful deal!

Hell, so we are scheduled and guaranteed 1.6% each year for the next six years each June. We aren't guaranteed a 1.6% each January. So we are basically only guaranteed 10.6% over six years (9.6% over six years plus a 1% "signing bonus." That doesn't even keep up with the governmental projections for inflation!
Delta's pilots union just rejected a 22% pay increase over three years...
Bra your math is all wrong. But for real this really isn't anything to complain about.
 

lowapproach

Epic Member
Oct 29, 2010
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The original post said 1% pay raise in January and the 1.6% next pay check which we were already going to receive. Based upon that information, it sounded like an awful deal!

Hell, so we are scheduled and guaranteed 1.6% each year for the next six years each June. We aren't guaranteed a 1.6% each January. So we are basically only guaranteed 10.6% over six years (9.6% over six years plus a 1% "signing bonus." That doesn't even keep up with the governmental projections for inflation!
Delta's pilots union just rejected a 22% pay increase over three years...
This is silly.

We are eligible for any raises the rest of the federal government gets in February (with this raise adjusting our pay bands by whatever percent increase), in addition to a guaranteed 1.6% every June within the band. Right now, it looks like Congress is set to approve a 1.6% raise for January, so we would get a 3.2% pay raise next year if that occurs. If we average 1% for the presidential pay raises over the next six years, that's a 16.6% pay raise over six years.

Your locality pay is a percentage of your basic pay. Your TSP matching is a function of your basic pay. Your FERS pension gets 16.6% bigger. I mean, Jesus Christ.
 

Nick

Senior Member
Jun 14, 2008
221
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Down Yonderville, TX
My farep mentioned something about being able to use all your leave in a year that you're going to earn, implying it would be guaranteed and probably bid. Anyone know anything about this?
 

RobertB

Senior Analyst
Aug 18, 2008
869
6
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Bra your math is all wrong. But for real this really isn't anything to complain about.
Guaranteed pay increases:
1% signing bonus (August 2016)
1.6% June 2017
1.6% June 2018
1.6% June 2019
1.6% June 2020
1.6% June 2021
1.6% June 2022
That's 10.6% in guaranteed pay increases. (The federal wide pay increases in January aren't guaranteed at all).

Governmental inflation numbers state a 1.95% rate of inflation over the last ten years...

You can Google Delta pilot contract talks and see what they asked for and what has been proposed bruh.
 

RobertB

Senior Analyst
Aug 18, 2008
869
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This is silly.

We are eligible for any raises the rest of the federal government gets in February (with this raise adjusting our pay bands by whatever percent increase), in addition to a guaranteed 1.6% every June within the band. Right now, it looks like Congress is set to approve a 1.6% raise for January, so we would get a 3.2% pay raise next year if that occurs. If we average 1% for the presidential pay raises over the next six years, that's a 16.6% pay raise over six years.

Your locality pay is a percentage of your basic pay. Your TSP matching is a function of your basic pay. Your FERS pension gets 16.6% bigger. I mean, Jesus Christ.
We are looking at guaranteed pay increases based on this contract proposal and nothing else and it isn't 16.6% at all! It's lower and doesn't even keep up with the inflation rate of the last ten years. The proposed governmental pay increases are nowhere near guaranteed (ask anyone who works for the FAA that say works at the RO.) So the only thing you're guaranteed is 10.6% over six years. 10.6% is better than 0%, but you guys are jumping for joy like this is some kind of big pay increase when it isn't at all and doesn't even keep up with inflation rates over the last ten years.
 

bluegrass_gal

Rookie
Jan 3, 2009
30
1
8
My farep mentioned something about being able to use all your leave in a year that you're going to earn, implying it would be guaranteed and probably bid. Anyone know anything about this?
At our facility we use to be only guaranteed 2 weeks of our leave in which you bid the first round. Any round after that would be approved or disapproved when the schedule was made. A few years ago we found out other facilities were getting all their accumulated leave in that year approved in all the bidding rounds. Every year we have to fight with management and we've been to impasse, but we end up winning and getting the chance to bid all the leave and having it approved immediately. It all weighs on how the contract is interrupted. I was hoping there would be a change to the language in the new contract so there wouldn't be as much fight with management every year, but I haven't heard anything yet. I hope I responded to the question correctly and not misunderstood it lol.
 

talontsiawd

Newcomer
Jul 17, 2009
8
1
3
We are looking at guaranteed pay increases based on this contract proposal and nothing else and it isn't 16.6% at all! It's lower and doesn't even keep up with the inflation rate of the last ten years. The proposed governmental pay increases are nowhere near guaranteed (ask anyone who works for the FAA that say works at the RO.) So the only thing you're guaranteed is 10.6% over six years. 10.6% is better than 0%, but you guys are jumping for joy like this is some kind of big pay increase when it isn't at all and doesn't even keep up with inflation rates over the last ten years.
Considering most of the FAA can't now ERR to a higher level due to the MOU, I was hoping for a bit more.
 

RomeoNovember

Senior Analyst
Sep 26, 2009
944
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Considering most of the FAA can't now ERR to a higher level due to the MOU, I was hoping for a bit more.
I guess there're trying to slip this new ERR MOU in the new book. Get on the telecoms and write your concerns to 2016CBAratification@natca.net. NATCA never asked any of its members input on this new ERR MOU. I think NATCA is going to loose a lot of members over it. Does anyone know how the 8 year rule applies to the ERR MOU?
 

echster

Senior Member
Sep 14, 2015
153
1
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DoD ATC
Many of you lack basic math skills. To compute pay raises year-over-year, you have to consider compounding and the higher base pay rate. Here is how the 1.6% per year works out over the duration of the contract if there were no other pay raises:

Start Pay January 2017 - $100,000 (easy round number)

June 2017 - $101,600 ($100,000 * 1.016)
June 2018 - $103,226 ($101,600 * 1.016)
June 2019 - $104,877 ($103,226 * 1.016)
June 2020 - $106,555 ($104,877 * 1.016)
June 2021 - $108,260 ($106,555 * 1.016)
June 2022 - $109,992 ($108,260 * 1.016)

Total pay raise from January 2017 equals 9.992%.

It is also possible to compute 1.6% in annual cost-of-living increases for all federal employees, meaning a pay raise in January of each year for everyone, but a portion of that pay raise goes to increasing locality pay (normal split is 1.3% to base pay and 0.3% to locality). That makes it much more difficult to compute. However, assuming all of the 1.6% went to base pay, you would then have a base pay rate of $119,078 in June 2022, or a contract increase of 19.078%. If any portion of the January pay raise goes to locality pay each year, again using compounding, now you're talking about a 22-25% increase over the 6 years of the new contract.

So the question becomes, are you better off being an air traffic controller in the FAA under the NATCA contract, a civilian or military air traffic controller not under the NATCA contract, or a federal employee outside of the FAA that cannot bargain for wages and benefits? If you are not sure, here is a hint: No one will have a better financial deal over the next 6 years than air traffic controllers in the FAA under the NATCA contract.

My two cents.
 

LuckyOne

Newcomer
Oct 3, 2012
16
0
1
We work for the federal government and NATCA negotiates for our work conditions within that realm. To compare our negotiations/work conditions to those of private sector employees is really a waste of time. If we don’t agree on a contract, it would go to arbitration. In that realm, NATCA would really need to justify any annual pay increases that are greater than what we already receive or what other government/FAA employees receive.

All general scale employees receive EXACTLY the same cost of living and locality adjustments in January that we receive. Asking for more than other federal employees would probably be immediately shut down by an arbitrator.

Our 1.6% in June is equivalent to General Scale (GS) employees in band step increases and FAA core compensation Organizational Success Increase (OSI) and Superior Contribution Increase (SCI).

Assuming acceptable performance, GS employees in steps 1-3 receive a step increase every year. The average of these increases is ~3.2%. This pales in comparison to our band increase equivalents (AG to D1 to D2 to D3 to CPC).For ATC-7 and above (ATC-4 to ATC-6 lack one or more of D1 to D3 so I left them out), the average increases are 33.3%, 24.6%, 19.6% and 16.3% respectively. Simply, our increases are MUCH greater.

Assuming acceptable performance, GS employees in steps 4-6 receive a step increase every two years. The average annual increase based on increases every two years is ~1.42%. 1.6% is greater than 1.42%.

Assuming acceptable performance, GS employees in steps 7-10 receive a step increase every three years. The average annual increase based on increases every two years is ~0.87%. 1.6% is greater than 0.87%s.

Most non-bargaining unit employees are in the core compensation pay plan. Each year, they receive an OSI up to 1% depending on how well the agency meets its goals. I don’t have the numbers, but I seem to recall 0.6% to 1.0% when we were under the plan during The White Book. The other portion is SCI-0 (0%), SCI -1(0.6%), or SCI -2(1.8%). Most employees receive SCI-1 with few SCI-0s and few OSI-2s. So,our increase is essentially a full OSI and an average SCI. Again, this is better than what other FAA employees receive. If NATCA went to arbitration seeking more, they wouldn’t be able to justify it.

My guess is that pay was very easy to negotiate. Both parties knew that any deviation from the current system would be difficult to justify in arbitration and not worth tanking a negotiation. I’m actually surprised NATCA was able to lock it in for 6 years much less get a 1% one-time bonus thrown in.

If anyone is upset that the guaranteed increases aren’t greater than what was negotiated, I would certainly like to hear a justification.
 

NovemberEcho

Epic Member
Dec 8, 2010
4,388
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Long Island
If anyone is seriously considering leaving NATCA because of the ERR MOU you are very short sighted. I don't agree with/like it either, but I love everything else I have cause of NATCA.
 

MJ0730

Trusted Member
Mar 8, 2010
478
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pointsixtyfive.com
I guess there're trying to slip this new ERR MOU in the new book. Get on the telecoms and write your concerns to 2016CBAratification@natca.net. NATCA never asked any of its members input on this new ERR MOU. I think NATCA is going to loose a lot of members over it. Does anyone know how the 8 year rule applies to the ERR MOU?
Its already part of the contract. The MOU modified the articles.
If your talking about priority consideration, that is subject to the MOU rules. So it's essentially void. The exception is the additional agreement for lvl 10-12 15yrs. More rules that benefit those with the most benefits.
 

JoshATC

Epic Member
Jun 27, 2010
1,384
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ZLA CPC
Guaranteed pay increases:
1% signing bonus (August 2016)
1.6% June 2017
1.6% June 2018
1.6% June 2019
1.6% June 2020
1.6% June 2021
1.6% June 2022
That's 10.6% in guaranteed pay increases. (The federal wide pay increases in January aren't guaranteed at all).

Governmental inflation numbers state a 1.95% rate of inflation over the last ten years...

You can Google Delta pilot contract talks and see what they asked for and what has been proposed bruh.
The 1% signing bonus is a one time PAY OUT.. Salaray + Locality = 130k. You get 1,300 bux Thats it.