New York TRACON - N90

Radium

Epic Member
Jan 14, 2009
1,988
8
38
Thats N90 for ya. Its funny how relateable a lot of that stuff is to the big tracons. Makes me happy every day I got where I got and not N90/C90.

That Natca FAA stuff, that rings true as well. Its a shame that sometimes NATCA gets so into wanting to FIGHT THE FAA, that the trainee gets screwed in the middle of it. NATCA wins the war, but the trainee loses his personal battle for employment.
 

Durden

Trusted Member
Nov 16, 2009
424
1
18
I have no intrest in going to NY, but I found this post very interesting. I felt like I read a magazine article this morning. Good luck to you and I hope you get transferred somewhere you are happy. F$%# all that noise.
 

vector1122

Newcomer
Jul 30, 2010
19
0
1
Re: The one place in all of air traffic control not to go!

Sounds like a wonderful place, I'll be there soon




I saw a couple of posts about people wanting to go to n90 aka the ny tracon. Just thought I'd throw my experience out there for people who are thinking about going there to try and dissuade them. (say no)
I was hired a over a year ago and finally got out not to long ago.
First off there's a garbage incinerator literally at the fence and the wind blows all the smoke right into the parking lot.
When I got there it was so evident of the absolutely ridiculous war between natca and the faa. Your tossed into a room with every manager thats not on the floor where you meet the head of the tracon this weird little black man who's got a really expensive watch and spends more time in barbados where his family is then actually at the tracon. Most of the management I came to find out were just washed out controllers it's kinda funny theres one GUY named hillary the OM who didnt even make it as a controller so they promoted him over the years until he had an office downstairs and all that just for being a flight data person. Common theme there if you don't make it as a controller the faa seems to promote you.
Then I met the union and they freaked out because a union rep wasn't with you at that meeting. Then of course you meet terry tracey the training manager. Shes universally unliked shes a smug little troll of a woman who obviously is divorced for many reasons. (Literally everyone hates her its kinda funny and she knows it). She really doesn't give a shit about anything. One day we estimated how many people come and go she has about a 3% success rate over the last three years. I don't say that as a ha ha joke its literaly the percentage of controllers who have checked out in the past 3 years just 3 percent and that includes previous fpls. Its a joke she gets paid six figures to do nothing but be a lawn gnome (makes me question the us government these days). After all that fun was over I got to get cuddly with all the controllers. I'm not gonna take anything away from them there good and severly overworked and if your not from new york its kinda hard to take them. me personally it wasn't really a big deal but if your from kansas or oregon as we had 4 guys come from and leave I can understand why most people can't take it. There actually kinda funny I can see how the place use to be awesome to work at back in the pushing tin days. (They will talk about you more or less infront of your face and you can't say a word). Of course you have your dicks and asshole mixed in but it is what it is. As a trainee you immediately get to hear about all the drama whos getting fired whos getting sent somewhere else who's review board it is tomorrow. I watched a class of 4 get fired my first week. Then you start class which is fun the map and such and all 56 frequencies and handoffs undoubtedly people won't make it from there. Some teachers who are controllers are easier then others it just depends. That turns into the sims which are fun I remember counting the airplanes you have to work to get out of the lab its 56 in an hour problem the airplanes stop coming out at about 40 mins. Your working 56 airplanes in 40 mins no easy task even for someone with experience.(just remember theres three airports 8 flying miles across and your sop and rules to follow are a 2 inch binder think) Basically when all is said and done 1 person out of the 4 if your lucky will make the other three just get fired. I saw whole classes not make it and get fired. Terry Tracey being the wonderful person she is.(great lawn decor though)
Then you also have to contend with who you can and cant talk to i.e. the bonus babies when the tracon offered that 100 grand to go there. Yea well you can't talk to those controllers and neither does anyone else they just try there hardest to make their lives living hell. There all thrown into one area because every controller refused to train them. (except this one black guy in lga) I feel bad for him they don't talk to him and they literally try to :p:p:p:p him when he works i watched a fun fight with him and another controller as i was walking out once.

I'd like to say about 30% of the floor managers are good guys maybe a little more. They deal with the controllers and most eventually stop screwing them over because they deal so much with the controllers. Every area has those couple of guys

Then you have all the natca meetings that are optionally mandatory.
I mean once all thats said and done. I found it kinda entertaining i looked foward to going to work there. There was always some entertaining drama every day there. However, it is a giant snake pit. Its fun to watch everyone else get screwed until it happens to you though. I can tell you plenty of stories of guys who were there for 2 years only to get washed out when they could have gone to any level 8 or 9 tower and been checked out in a year maybe less. When your a trainee too cti ots vra whatever you are the union seems to have whats in your best interest for you but i kinda question it because i know they didnt agree with all the ots and cti people going there.
In the next couple of years newark area is screwed everyones retiring no one wants to go there so they started putting trainees in that area lets just say there going to have to figure something else out. So if you did get checked out you run the risk of getting shipped over there.
I mean if your all about being the alpha male feel free to go to the tracon. All I'm saying is i could be at ft lauderdale airport making 90 grand and happy with all my hair intact and probably some beautiful blonde every night.
Its a love hate relationship there. If your not liked your screwed if your not really good your screwed. It is entertaining there though I'll say that much about it. If you really gotta stay in ny go to the center it takes about 4 years to check out there it takes 2 1/2 at the tracon. Its worth knowing you won't get fired and you get paid the same 200 grand plus they really dont wash out many people or that you won't get shipped to west virginia.
 

SlowBleed

Newcomer
Sep 9, 2010
3
0
1
NY, Facility N90
Re: The one place in all of air traffic control not to go!

I saw a couple of posts about people wanting to go to n90 aka the ny tracon. Just thought I'd throw my experience out there for people who are thinking about going there to try and dissuade them. (say no)
I was hired a over a year ago and finally got out not to long ago.
First off there's a garbage incinerator literally at the fence and the wind blows all the smoke right into the parking lot.
When I got there it was so evident of the absolutely ridiculous war between natca and the faa. Your tossed into a room with every manager thats not on the floor where you meet the head of the tracon this weird little black man who's got a really expensive watch and spends more time in barbados where his family is then actually at the tracon. Most of the management I came to find out were just washed out controllers it's kinda funny theres one GUY named hillary the OM who didnt even make it as a controller so they promoted him over the years until he had an office downstairs and all that just for being a flight data person. Common theme there if you don't make it as a controller the faa seems to promote you.
Then I met the union and they freaked out because a union rep wasn't with you at that meeting. Then of course you meet terry tracey the training manager. Shes universally unliked shes a smug little troll of a woman who obviously is divorced for many reasons. (Literally everyone hates her its kinda funny and she knows it). She really doesn't give a shit about anything. One day we estimated how many people come and go she has about a 3% success rate over the last three years. I don't say that as a ha ha joke its literaly the percentage of controllers who have checked out in the past 3 years just 3 percent and that includes previous fpls. Its a joke she gets paid six figures to do nothing but be a lawn gnome (makes me question the us government these days). After all that fun was over I got to get cuddly with all the controllers. I'm not gonna take anything away from them there good and severly overworked and if your not from new york its kinda hard to take them. me personally it wasn't really a big deal but if your from kansas or oregon as we had 4 guys come from and leave I can understand why most people can't take it. There actually kinda funny I can see how the place use to be awesome to work at back in the pushing tin days. (They will talk about you more or less infront of your face and you can't say a word). Of course you have your dicks and asshole mixed in but it is what it is. As a trainee you immediately get to hear about all the drama whos getting fired whos getting sent somewhere else who's review board it is tomorrow. I watched a class of 4 get fired my first week. Then you start class which is fun the map and such and all 56 frequencies and handoffs undoubtedly people won't make it from there. Some teachers who are controllers are easier then others it just depends. That turns into the sims which are fun I remember counting the airplanes you have to work to get out of the lab its 56 in an hour problem the airplanes stop coming out at about 40 mins. Your working 56 airplanes in 40 mins no easy task even for someone with experience.(just remember theres three airports 8 flying miles across and your sop and rules to follow are a 2 inch binder think) Basically when all is said and done 1 person out of the 4 if your lucky will make the other three just get fired. I saw whole classes not make it and get fired. Terry Tracey being the wonderful person she is.(great lawn decor though)
Then you also have to contend with who you can and cant talk to i.e. the bonus babies when the tracon offered that 100 grand to go there. Yea well you can't talk to those controllers and neither does anyone else they just try there hardest to make their lives living hell. There all thrown into one area because every controller refused to train them. (except this one black guy in lga) I feel bad for him they don't talk to him and they literally try to :p:p:p:p him when he works i watched a fun fight with him and another controller as i was walking out once.

I'd like to say about 30% of the floor managers are good guys maybe a little more. They deal with the controllers and most eventually stop screwing them over because they deal so much with the controllers. Every area has those couple of guys

Then you have all the natca meetings that are optionally mandatory.
I mean once all thats said and done. I found it kinda entertaining i looked foward to going to work there. There was always some entertaining drama every day there. However, it is a giant snake pit. Its fun to watch everyone else get screwed until it happens to you though. I can tell you plenty of stories of guys who were there for 2 years only to get washed out when they could have gone to any level 8 or 9 tower and been checked out in a year maybe less. When your a trainee too cti ots vra whatever you are the union seems to have whats in your best interest for you but i kinda question it because i know they didnt agree with all the ots and cti people going there.
In the next couple of years newark area is screwed everyones retiring no one wants to go there so they started putting trainees in that area lets just say there going to have to figure something else out. So if you did get checked out you run the risk of getting shipped over there.
I mean if your all about being the alpha male feel free to go to the tracon. All I'm saying is i could be at ft lauderdale airport making 90 grand and happy with all my hair intact and probably some beautiful blonde every night.
Its a love hate relationship there. If your not liked your screwed if your not really good your screwed. It is entertaining there though I'll say that much about it. If you really gotta stay in ny go to the center it takes about 4 years to check out there it takes 2 1/2 at the tracon. Its worth knowing you won't get fired and you get paid the same 200 grand plus they really dont wash out many people or that you won't get shipped to west virginia.
i started in the agency in '91 and worked in a small tower in NJ. i transferred to N90 in '94 and was checked out in about 14 months.

the rumors about N90 were going strong back then. high wash out rates, low staffing, and sporadic training. remember that the wash out rate doesn't include people that realize that they don't want to be an air traffic controller and just withdraw from the program.

jetworkr and papa whiskey have it right. know your bookwork, keep your eyes and ears open. this isn't an easy facility to come to straight from the street, but it is possible. there have been 3 new cpc's within the last 2-3 years that have qualified in my area alone. they had the right attitude and work ethic.

there is nothing worse than having a trainee plug in and not know the airspace/bookwork. i cannot teach the trainee that. i am there to teach them to vector and apply the rules (that they are supposed to know) in a live air traffic environment.
trainees that call in sick and swap shifts with less productive traffic tend not to make it. how much effort would you as an instructor, put in towards the trainee's career if the trainee doesn't care about it themselves?

come to work every day with your headset in hand and "ask" to be trained. tell your trainer thank you when you are done with the session. these will show your trainer that you want to be at N90 and i'm 100% sure that the trainer will go the extra mile to try and get you checked out.

don't listen to all the bitter talk about N90 because there are plenty of people that have bid here and love it.

there will always be assholes wherever you work regardless of your occupation. the above post is amusing. no offense intended but the post is skewed towards the posters perspective.

remember, the more people that we get checked out in N90 means better days off, better selection of vacation days, and less overtime.

good luck to all the people that choose to come to N90.
 

boink

Newcomer
Sep 9, 2010
1
0
1
I have worked at N90 for what seems like an eternity and as much as I like to complain, I know all to well that its one of the best places in the country to work. We work hard and play harder. We fight for what is right for NATCA and what is right for the flying public. Does it make us the bad guy sometimes, you bet your ass it does. But the fights we win benefit the entire country, we lay the ground work which paves the way for everyone.

Here is a plain fact, I have seen dozens of people transfer out of N90 and out of those dozens, Id be willing to say 80% of them come back. If you dont know any better, you think N90 is just a bunch of assholes with a chip on their shoulder. Ask someone thats been here for a number of years and left for another facility. That would be the true test here.

Good luck to anyone that comes here off the street, its a very difficult task but 100% obtainable with total dedication. N90 is not for everyone but its a lot better than people would like to think.

Now on a side note, the post that splendor34 made spread around THE TRACON like wild fire. We all had a good laugh and speculated who might have written it. There is a lot of truth to what he said and of course its a trainee's perspective. His view would have quickly changed once he certified. Im sorry splendor34 did not check out here, he sounds like someone that would have been fun to work with.

Good luck and let us know how you make out.
 

splendor34

Newcomer
Aug 31, 2010
10
0
1
Aw, Miss you guys so much I get the warm fuzzies every time I think about that place. I sincerely hope someone placed a highlighted copy on any managers office upstairs ;-). Listen freddy kruger and Oink(although you did actually admit most of it was true) if you guys think you can write a rosier and honest picture of what it's actually like to be a trainee today feel free. I wrote it because in my opinion whats going on there is bull shit. I watched and heard plenty of stories of people who 'busted' their asses to get shown the door. So needless to say those put their head down and work your ass off stories don't always ring true with me sorry. I'm not blaming the training on anyone because i don't want anyone to take any responsibility for anything including any decisions I know it'll always be the FAA that does everything in the end. The reason I wrote it was because (and I understand that we didn't always get the brightest kids) but everyone should be aware of what actually goes on there as a trainee (since there's no magic fpl fairy dust) like the fact that probablity is 1 out of the 4 kids will make it out of class and lab. And if you are that 1 kid that you still may not make it and from there your sent to bumble :p:p:p:p iowa. So maybe just maybe 1 or 2 smart kids will read this and say gee I'll go to a tower somewhere else where i wanna go and if i still wanna be in new york bid up so i dont end up FIRED or in OREGON.

(one thing I ommited in my previous post this actual statement "before i was manager I didn't have any actual experience in training")

P.S. Im shocked everyone there could read that post I used some big words hope this ones easier.

Miss you guys XoXoxOXo
 

fletchrush17

Rookie
Aug 24, 2010
70
0
6
I watched and heard plenty of stories of people who 'busted' their asses to get shown the door. So needless to say those put their head down and work your ass off stories don't always ring true with me sorry.
Maybe this will get through to those expecting to go from basic to level 12 and do it no problem. Probably not, but it will be fun to see them wash out!
 

SlowBleed

Newcomer
Sep 9, 2010
3
0
1
NY, Facility N90
Aw, Miss you guys so much I get the warm fuzzies every time I think about that place. I sincerely hope someone placed a highlighted copy on any managers office upstairs ;-). Listen freddy kruger and Oink(although you did actually admit most of it was true) if you guys think you can write a rosier and honest picture of what it's actually like to be a trainee today feel free. I wrote it because in my opinion whats going on there is bull shit. I watched and heard plenty of stories of people who 'busted' their asses to get shown the door. So needless to say those put their head down and work your ass off stories don't always ring true with me sorry. I'm not blaming the training on anyone because i don't want anyone to take any responsibility for anything including any decisions I know it'll always be the FAA that does everything in the end. The reason I wrote it was because (and I understand that we didn't always get the brightest kids) but everyone should be aware of what actually goes on there as a trainee (since there's no magic fpl fairy dust) like the fact that probablity is 1 out of the 4 kids will make it out of class and lab. And if you are that 1 kid that you still may not make it and from there your sent to bumble :p:p:p:p iowa. So maybe just maybe 1 or 2 smart kids will read this and say gee I'll go to a tower somewhere else where i wanna go and if i still wanna be in new york bid up so i dont end up FIRED or in OREGON.

(one thing I ommited in my previous post this actual statement "before i was manager I didn't have any actual experience in training")

P.S. Im shocked everyone there could read that post I used some big words hope this ones easier.

Miss you guys XoXoxOXo
you seem to forget that all the fpl's/cpc's in N90 were once trainees as well. we made it through through all of the "bullshit".
 

splendor34

Newcomer
Aug 31, 2010
10
0
1
I never forgot that hence the reason I added the part about the magic fairy dust. I just get a little um whats the word mad, irate, pissed when other controllers write things like put your head down and work hard. There's a mentality there unlike the facility I'm at now and the other places all the people I met at the academy tell me about. This mentality that how many people can we wash out. It's one of the core reasons I have such disdain for terry. Her modus operandi is how many people can I fire today you can feel it when you walk in her office. You can practically see the crown on her head and her yelling bow. But, its not her alone I remember once hearing a controller talk about all the people they were washing out in his sector. He was almost giddy. If your one of the chosen one's its practically a selfful filling prophecy check out and make it just as hard for them. I understand getting absolute hell as a trainee I liked it personally. But, whats going on now obviously isn't work theres 150 controllers or something like that in a facility that houses how many.(i can't remember the exact number in that letter that all the congressman signed and was sent to randy babbit). It's why everyone views the place as this horror show. The place runs fine on the weekends when none of the management is around. Then monday roles around. I can understand the unions grivances completely. To be totally honest with the exception of the airspace office and the guys in the computer room I don't understand for the life of me why we need 8 or 9 guys getting paid what they do when we do the work. But then they :p:p:p:p us we turn around :p:p:p:p them and its a circle jerk. It's pointless it really is. Then lets see how many new kids we can hire send there and see what happens. Thats followed by the union getting what they want and to quote that other guy perviously that employee losing his own personal battle it's what happens and I'm sorry but I'd like to give those couple of people who read this a chance to not be part of the cycle. And I hope this caught managments attention so maybe they can be smart enough to help fix this problem I doubt it though.
 

SlowBleed

Newcomer
Sep 9, 2010
3
0
1
NY, Facility N90
Thats followed by the union getting what they want and to quote that other guy perviously that employee losing his own personal battle it's what happens and I'm sorry but I'd like to give those couple of people who read this a chance to not be part of the cycle. And I hope this caught managments attention so maybe they can be smart enough to help fix this problem I doubt it though.
The union getting what they want?? The union has fought for what you have now. The salary that you are earning now was fought by us (the union).

Prior to the implementation of the the white book, the FAA's last best offer was to have a 2 tiered pay scale. The current controllers would not take a pay freeze or lose CIP if the union agreed to hire new controllers at a lower salary. The new salary was to basically bring back the old GS scale to air traffic. For example, for a level 12 facility the max salary would have not exceeded $90,000.

The current controllers took a pay cut for your current salary. Don't make it seem as if the union did this and the union did that. Do some research and find out the facts as to why the union has the current stance with management.

As far as you getting angry when an FPL/CPC says keep your head down and work hard. The trainees that hit the floor are supposed to know their bookwork and rules. I cannot tell you how many times I've seen the blank stare because the rule or airspace is not known. Hence the phrase, keep your head down and study. You are taking it personal and that shouldn't be the case.

Management will not see this and even if they did, they wouldn't care. We've been saying for years that new people shouldn't come to N90 as their first facility to no avail.

good luck in your new facility
 

boondr

PHD without a degree
Jul 13, 2008
338
2
18
North of the Equator
Prior to the implementation of the the white book, the FAA's last best offer was to have a 2 tiered pay scale. The current controllers would not take a pay freeze or lose CIP if the union agreed to hire new controllers at a lower salary. The new salary was to basically bring back the old GS scale to air traffic. For example, for a level 12 facility the max salary would have not exceeded $90,000.

The current controllers took a pay cut for your current salary. Don't make it seem as if the union did this and the union did that. Do some research and find out the facts as to why the union has the current stance with management.

This is a very true point and I am sure most like me appreciate it sincerely. However it is disingenuous to not note that a lot of this had to do with NATCA realizing that to accept a two-tiered payscale would have been signing it's own death warrant. NATCA knew 10 years down the road those in the lower tier would have outnumbered those in the upper tier and there would have been a HUGE divide and and significant amount of bitterness. There would have been no loyalty to a union which supported that two-tiered scale. NATCA had to turn that offer down if they wanted to survive.

It was a noble thing but it did have a certain degree of self preservation involved on NATCA's part.
 

noid

Curtis E. Carr
Jun 24, 2008
2,024
18
38
In a van down by the river.
Super honest, actually.
Are you saying it's honest because that's the way most controller's are, or is it your opinion that the poster was being honest?

If it's the latter, being honest is no excuse to be unprofessional. I find it to be in poor taste for anyone to find enjoyment in someone failing to certify.

If you think it's "super honest" because that's just the way it is, please excuse me if I don't look at that statement as having much validity coming from a CTI grad that just got to their facility that is staffed with about 20 controllers. Not a lot of experience to form such an opinion on.
 

Jax

Senior Analyst
Nov 17, 2010
869
32
28
N90-EWR
I <3 N90

Coming up on my 20th anniversary here. Never worked anywhere else, and I'll be here till the day I retire.

People say they hate this place, yet a great percentage of the people that transfer out end up coming back after they find out that the rest of the FAA is worse.

Sure management sucks, and there are a lot of things that could be better as far as working conditions go, but the actual work? love it. Nothing like coming in for the 3by, get tossed into north arrival/22final combined while the "whats for chow?" calls are going out. There's just something about it that never gets old, and for those of us that are there, and "get it", we wouldn't have it any other way.