Pilot Deviation/ Call the Tower Please....

cgabriel7110

Junior Member
Jan 17, 2014
105
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Earth
Hey so just a general poll,

When do most of you draw the line? I work at a GA tower and most of the time we are very forgiving and understanding of mistakes made by pilots. We all make them... So, when has the situation gone to far to where you would do paperwork?
 

AlphaBravoh

Trusted Member
Feb 17, 2011
490
12
18
Hey so just a general poll,

When do most of you draw the line? I work at a GA tower and most of the time we are very forgiving and underatnding of mistakes made by pilots. We all make them. When has the situation gone to far to where you would do paperwork?
My policy has always been to give pilots the opportunity to apologize and recognize their mistakes. I always speak to them personally and ensure they understand the issue at hand. If I were ever to catch that same pilot commiting the same mistake, I would take it to the next level. As it stands however, I have yet had the opportunity to do that.

Furthest I've ever taken it is I reported a CAP instructor to his commander for landing without a clearance. I've always had issues with CAP, and when they did that, it was the last straw.
 

StuSEL

Moderator
Aug 23, 2009
1,014
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You know where.
I just took a law class where the professor insisted ATC is required to file pilot deviations for every instance where they are asked to call the tower. He said something about how the days of controllers not filing paperwork are long gone. I thought it was a little sensationalist myself. Can someone explain that? Perhaps it's just an FAA facility mandate?
 

Stinger

Epic Member
May 24, 2009
1,563
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I just took a law class where the professor insisted ATC is required to file pilot deviations for every instance where they are asked to call the tower. He said something about how the days of controllers not filing paperwork are long gone. I thought it was a little sensationalist myself. Can someone explain that? Perhaps it's just an FAA facility mandate?
That's not true. If it's something egregious I guess I'd be more apt to do some sort of paperwork. If a pilot gets told to call the tower and doesn't, there's really nothing we can do about it either. For me, unless a pilot says he's going to file paperwork for a near miss or something, it's always no-harm, no-foul.
 

SouthBeachLivin

Senior Member
Sep 14, 2013
171
8
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South Florida
Unless they encroach on an active runway or separation is lost you usually don't see a pilot deviation filed. If an aircraft is sent around or put into harms way as a result of the deviation then an official pilot deviation should be filed.

Sometimes it also depends on who is in the tower cab or IFR room at the time. If the facility manager is a witness then it's almost guaranteed paperwork.
 

cgabriel7110

Junior Member
Jan 17, 2014
105
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Earth
Yeah, I agree AB, CAP guys are litterally the worst out there lol. East is West for them and North is South... A phone call usually settles it but Ive had some bad days here where ive had 4-5 phone calls in one day or simple things like Class D violations, not reporting postions when told to do so, Turning in front of people in the downwinds or on final. Sometimes Its just a good ole fashon circus around here.

You would think that maybe "making an example" out of someone might be a good idea at times but I feel like it wont do any good lol. If stupid is going to happen, its going to happen....
 

FM_Weasel

Senior Analyst
Dec 9, 2008
991
7
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I just took a law class where the professor insisted ATC is required to file pilot deviations for every instance where they are asked to call the tower. He said something about how the days of controllers not filing paperwork are long gone. I thought it was a little sensationalist myself. Can someone explain that? Perhaps it's just an FAA facility mandate?
Going to disagree with the folks above on this one.

All instances of deviation are now Mandatory Occurrence Report items. That doesn't mean controllers give a number every time it happens, but it does mean that if it's found later through a quality assurance review, or if a supervisor notices it, it will/could be reported whether the controller intended that or not.

Short story: it's all required to be reported now.
Caveat: stuff still slips between the cracks due to sympathy, inattention, or both.
 

cgabriel7110

Junior Member
Jan 17, 2014
105
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Earth
+1 FM Weasel. Yes I agree with you, but wouldn't you say some stuff is more "reportable" than others. I mean I work at a place where these guys hardly speak English which causes alot of confusion on both ends of the radio. What would you do about a pilot who:

-Doesn't report over a position you tell him to, (Example: "Make straight in for runway (xx) REPORT 5 mile final") or ("Report a 3 mile Right/left 45") and then causes an issue with sequencing because he didnt check in where he was supposed to...
- Told to exit the runway without delay, then slows down even more and the controller is forced to send the guy behind him around.

Things like this happen on a daily basis and its a major headache. I feel like no matter how much paperwork you do it will never change.
 

FoggyWindow

Trusted Contributor
Feb 18, 2011
684
16
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Los Santos Intl Airport
I'm anti-paperwork. I much prefer to have a pilot call me so I can explain what he did and how he should do it in the future. BUT, if I get some butthole know-it-all who acts too good to hear some controller tell him he is wrong then I will file paperwork with the quickness. I've only ever filed once and that was on a guy who blew through my pattern after being sequenced #3 and made himself number one. When I asked him to call me and he did, I got halfway through my first sentence and he realized I was making a correction on him and he hung up.
 

FoggyWindow

Trusted Contributor
Feb 18, 2011
684
16
18
Los Santos Intl Airport
+1 FM Weasel. Yes I agree with you, but wouldn't you say some stuff is more "reportable" than others. I mean I work at a place where these guys hardly speak English which causes alot of confusion on both ends of the radio. What would you do about a pilot who:

-Doesn't report over a position you tell him to, (Example: "Make straight in for runway (xx) REPORT 5 mile final") or ("Report a 3 mile Right/left 45") and then causes an issue with sequencing because he didnt check in where he was supposed to...
- Told to exit the runway without delay, then slows down even more and the controller is forced to send the guy behind him around.

Things like this happen on a daily basis and its a major headache. I feel like no matter how much paperwork you do it will never change.
Oh man, thats one of my pet peeves. If I tell you to get off my runway so I can squeeze somebody in behind you and you dilly-dally and cause me to send somebody around, you are getting an earful of F-bombs.
 

DontCallMeShirley

Senior Analyst
Mar 31, 2012
838
22
18
Pushing Tin SUCKS
I would pay good money to hear some F-bombs on frequency hahaha
Most of the guys I train with are former Air Force and I can't believe how quick they are to drop f-bombs once their finger is off the button. There's like a nanosecond delay from them saying "NXXXX, runway 4, clear for the option" to "THIS F****** IDIOT HAS NO F****** CLUE WHAT THE F*** HE'S DOING." It's pretty impressive.

The biggest problems we have are students who report over points they're nowhere near, and students who answer to traffic point-outs with "roger" and not "looking for traffic/traffic in sight". The second one equals instant insults towards the student with the mic (hopefully) off.
 
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cgabriel7110

Junior Member
Jan 17, 2014
105
0
16
Earth
Most of the guys I train with are former Air Force and I can't believe how quick they are to drop f-bombs once their finger is off the button. There's like a nanosecond delay from them saying "NXXXX, runway 4, clear for the option" to "THIS F****** IDIOT HAS NO F****** CLUE WHAT THE F*** HE'S DOING." It's pretty impressive.
Haha...guilty.
 

scope dope

the worst cpc you know
Feb 20, 2009
423
3
18
I just took a law class where the professor insisted ATC is required to file pilot deviations for every instance where they are asked to call the tower. He said something about how the days of controllers not filing paperwork are long gone. I thought it was a little sensationalist myself. Can someone explain that? Perhaps it's just an FAA facility mandate?
there was just an article in AOPA a month, maybe two back about some of the changes. I know on some things in the enroute world the way it is handled has changed and it automatically gets sent to the region who kicks it to the FSDO who makes the decision and more often than not pursues it. I have personally had a couple instances where I wouldn't have even asked the pilot to call and I thought the issue was done and 2 sectors later I hear the supe telling the pilot to call, then having to do a statement and listen to QA tell me "oh it's no big deal, the pilot just gets a deviation but nothing happens to him...." yeah... right.
if a guy deviates for weather and doesn't do what I ask, I'll probably let it go
if a guy is off his route or has an automation error and takes a wrong turn, I'll let it go
he takes a wrong turn and gets in with someone, well sorry at that point in the faa's eyes it's someones fault and if it isn't mine I'm not going to cover for you, sorry.
 

StuSEL

Moderator
Aug 23, 2009
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You know where.
Basically an inspector at the FSDO will take the report, try to gather more information, and if they can pinpoint who the pilot(s) flying were -- probably the most important detail -- they will send the file to an FAA attorney who can invoke certificate action. The penalties can be anything from recurrent training to an all-out revocation. The changes at enroute sound like they have to do with the "snitch" which records every possible deviation.

The trick for pilots is not telling anyone their name on the phone. If an inspector approaches us, we have to, but we don't have to admit to flying any aircraft. Really, in my opinion, the system is pretty screwed up. Lots of "gotcha" going on. Same on the ATC side from stories I've heard about snitch.
 

spades

What's happening?
Apr 20, 2009
794
10
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I despise having to tell a pilot to write a phone number down. They should tell them to call AFTER they land. You wouldn't tell a controller they had a possible deal but then leave them on position and you shouldn't do it to a pilot.
 

mikefsfr

Epic Member
May 31, 2010
1,212
3
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Train Me.
I despise having to tell a pilot to write a phone number down. They should tell them to call AFTER they land. You wouldn't tell a controller they had a possible deal but then leave them on position and you shouldn't do it to a pilot.

Centers do this all the time to us. They relay all the way to us and we tell them to call center when they are taxiing to their gate.
 

The Fold

Transmitting in the Blind
Apr 15, 2009
250
1
18
Florida
I would say the majority of our calls, probably 90% are not to violate anyone, but to figure out why something happened. What I hate are the asshole controllers who think they're almighty, and the pilots are all dumbasses. The guy does nothing wrong, gets told to call the center, and then the controller's supervisor berates them on the phone. Seen that happen more than once.