"Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon

NewsBot

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Oct 17, 2008
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The FAA could soon implement a changeover from "position and hold" to "line up and wait," to conform with international phraseology standards, NBAA said this week. If approved later this month, the new terminology could be implemented as soon as this June. It's long overdue, according to NTSB Chairman Deborah Hersman. She said the NTSB issued six recommendations in July 2000, asking the FAA to change various ATC procedures to reduce the risks of runway operations. "In response, we were recently advised that the FAA soon plans to adopt a single change: the use of "line up and wait" instead of "position and hold" to instruct pilots to enter a runway and wait for takeoff clearance," Hersman said at a runway safety summit in Washington last month. "We needed to wait nine years for that?" Bob Lamond, of NBAA, told AVweb on Tuesday he doesn't expect too much distress over the change. "Folks are going to stumble over it at first, but we'll get used to it," he said. "It's been talked about for years, so it's really a non-issue for us."

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Use this thread to discuss the article above. What are your thoughts about: "Position And Hold" Change Expected Soon?
 
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PDXer

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Why is this causing such an uproar? A few controllers at my facility are beside themselves over this. Is it really that big of a deal?
 

Roddy_Piper

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Jun 15, 2008
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it's not a huge deal, but it is annoying. phraseology changes that are that radical is the problem. i prefer not to have to change to ICAO rules as much as possible.

when i was in the middle east it was a pain having 2 sets of standards, which i suppose is the reason for the change. but my opinion is we should do it the American way in the states, and only change if your deployed overseas or move out of country to do ATC. otherwise, keep things the way it is. FAA phraseology is made in the USA, not made in China.
 

TOWER_BOY1

Senior Member
Jun 10, 2009
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it's not a huge deal, but it is annoying. phraseology changes that are that radical is the problem. i prefer not to have to change to ICAO rules as much as possible.

when i was in the middle east it was a pain having 2 sets of standards, which i suppose is the reason for the change. but my opinion is we should do it the American way in the states, and only change if your deployed overseas or move out of country to do ATC. otherwise, keep things the way it is. FAA phraseology is made in the USA, not made in China.
:agree: but you :cross: "not made in china"..:lol: too funny
 

Battani22

Trusted Contributor
Apr 6, 2009
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I think it sound more like you're a carnie at the roller coaster ride telling the kids to wait for the gate to open before getting in...
 

SpinningHat

Mr. Hat
Jun 4, 2009
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Minneapolis, MN
Line up and wait? What the hell? it sounds amateurish and stupid.. We're all professionals, and besides, what American Pilot doesn't understand "Taxi into position and hold" when right next to a runway?
 

MZL

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Jun 1, 2009
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I agree there's nothing wrong with "Position and hold." I've instructed foreign students before and not one has found it confusing. As others have stated, "line up and wait" just doesn't sound as professional.


this is ridiculous. why are we changing to ICAO. make the foreigners change to our standards. this is annoying. now we'll all sound like a bunch of brits.
This kind of mindset is one of the reasons so many foreigners hate Americans. Why should others abide by the American standard? The world is already using feet for altitude, as stupid as feet, inches, and yards are.
 

Roddy_Piper

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This kind of mindset is one of the reasons so many foreigners hate Americans. Why should others abide by the American standard? The world is already using feet for altitude, as stupid as feet, inches, and yards are.
your missing the point. i don't give a sh!t what the rest of the world uses. they can use meters, "line up and wait", QNH in hectopascals, etc all they want in their own country. our pilots will follow their rules while their there. but here in the States we will use our own and require foreigners to comply.

as long as we are the big dogs we get the prime spot in the dog house. not the little poodle or shit-ziu.

next thing ur gonna tell me that immigrants shouldn't have to learn english and instead we should learn farsi so they can communicate with us. [/off rant]
 

MZL

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Jun 1, 2009
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I think "make the foreigners change to our standards" has a different message than what you intended to convey. Doesn't matter; I got it. I'm just tired of America forcing it's concepts and way of life on other people... not that any other nation should be allowed to do the same.

As far as the language comment - I don't understand why I see Spanish at public locations like airports when Spanish is not an official language. I can understand if you own a business that perhaps serves a substantial number of immigrants of a specific nationality and you choose to post signs or have forms in their language; it's your business and you can do what you want which isn't the case with publicly owned airports.
 

Roddy_Piper

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Jun 15, 2008
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i don't always articulate as well as i would like to. sometimes a thought is in my head and when i put it into words it's completely different. and then i sometimes further go off the deep end when it isn't needed.
 

FALCON

Senior Member
May 7, 2009
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"taxi into position and hold" was too long and confusing so it changed to "position and hold" but i guess thats not good enough either. I think ICAO should mandate that everyone communicate using simple grunts so that the pilots who are too lazy to learn english can operate in the US
 

ColtsME

Newcomer
Jan 24, 2010
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im currently deployed. everytime you tell a russian to "position and hold" they stop where they are. the only confusing part of using both "line up and wait" and "position and hold" is who to issue what to...although the russians are the only guys that dont seem to know what "position and hold" means.
 
A

atcpookie

Guest
I'm not so concerned with the fact that this is changing (I do kind of like it) but that no one seems to be thinking of what else has to change because of this.

Traffic calls would now be - "UAL238 continue inbound traffic a B737 lined up and waiting" or maybe just "UAL238 continue inbound traffic a B737 waiting" or "UAL238 continue inbound traffic a B737 lined up"

When you would talk to the aircraft holing in position you were required to say "continue holding" now will you say "continue waiting"
 

The Heatles

Loving Life
Jun 15, 2008
2,172
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We say "HOLD" short of a runway... we dont say "WAIT" short of a runway.

I did this forever ago when I was stationed in Europe... We'd say "line up and wait" and the pilot would say "roger, position and hold" haha
 

maddog68

Rookie
Jan 19, 2010
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AZ
I cant believe that the FAA refuses to make the correct changes. I just wish that someone in Washington would do the right thing. When there are incidents that require attention, I believe that it is the FAA's responsibility to address the situationa and the offending controller. Not to just change the way we do things as an industry. That forces thousands of contollers to learn something new, when the correct action, should be the retraining of one individual. I know that I have never had an incident with an A/C in position and hold, but because some moron somewhere else screwed up, I am no longer able to use it. That is because, as a facility, we are not able to justify the need due to traffic volume. But the basics of ATC are the Safe, Orderly and Expeditious movement of air traffic. Now because of some piece of #*^# lawyer, justifying their job, these changes are now a regular part of our monthly training. I just say, stand-by to stand-by, cause this aint the last change the FAA will make for us in the future.
Just my 2 cents!!!
 

maddog68

Rookie
Jan 19, 2010
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I think "make the foreigners change to our standards" has a different message than what you intended to convey. Doesn't matter; I got it. I'm just tired of America forcing it's concepts and way of life on other people... not that any other nation should be allowed to do the same.

As far as the language comment - I don't understand why I see Spanish at public locations like airports when Spanish is not an official language. I can understand if you own a business that perhaps serves a substantial number of immigrants of a specific nationality and you choose to post signs or have forms in their language; it's your business and you can do what you want which isn't the case with publicly owned airports.
I disagree, with you, ATC was started in the US, then when the rest of the world came in they got ICAO.

When we talk about traffic in the US it should be our choice. Im sick of all these foreingers coming here , because its sooooooooo much better than where they came from, but then they want to change our ways to the same ones where the came from.

whats next. controllers will have to learn all of the foreign languages to make it easier on the pilot.

im a professional, and i expect the pilots to be professional also. I keep up on changes in the system and they should be held accountable also.