Question About Closed Traffic.

RomeoPapa

Newcomer
Jun 16, 2015
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Here is the question: How often do you give VFR aircraft "maintain visual separation."

The reason I ask this is because I heard it was taboo to give a VFR aircraft in the pattern
"maintain visual separation."

I was wondering why it would be taboo to give an aircraft in the pattern "maintain visual
separation."
 

Stinger

Epic Member
May 24, 2009
1,562
21
38
Here is the question: How often do you give VFR aircraft "maintain visual separation."

The reason I ask this is because I heard it was taboo to give a VFR aircraft in the pattern
"maintain visual separation."

I was wondering why it would be taboo to give an aircraft in the pattern "maintain visual
separation."
If the pattern traffic is doing a touch-and-go on the runway less than three minutes after a larger weight class aircraft departs, then you say "maintain visual separation."
If you tell a VFR plane to maintain visual separation at any other time in the pattern you're saying meaningless words.
 

phillyman2633

Epic Member
May 13, 2010
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International waters
www.drudgereport.com
Every time I hear someone say "Maintain Visual Separation" to a VFR aircraft, I want to punch them square in the fukKen face. "Well, I'm just saying it for the tapes...can never be too safe." Wtf else kind of separation would they maintain? The only thing you have accomplished is a complete lack of understanding of the .65 and sounding like an idiot to those who know how to properly apply the rules.
 

Stinger

Epic Member
May 24, 2009
1,562
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Every time I hear someone say "Maintain Visual Separation" to a VFR aircraft, I want to punch them square in the fukKen face. "Well, I'm just saying it for the tapes...can never be too safe." Wtf else kind of separation would they maintain? The only thing you have accomplished is a complete lack of understanding of the .65 and sounding like an idiot to those who know how to properly apply the rules.
Or telling a VFR plane to "maintain VFR" on every transmission.
 

j_time41

Senior Analyst
Nov 17, 2008
1,015
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Lakeville, MN
Here is the question: How often do you give VFR aircraft "maintain visual separation."

The reason I ask this is because I heard it was taboo to give a VFR aircraft in the pattern
"maintain visual separation."

I was wondering why it would be taboo to give an aircraft in the pattern "maintain visual
separation."
If by "taboo" you mean stupid and meaningless, you would be correct.
 

bob44zw

Junior Member
Apr 5, 2011
108
1
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It is dumb - but so is line up and wait. Our controllers have to issue it behind certain heavier twins. I questioned it - in my Cub I do not have a prayer of either catching or avoiding a Falcon 10. It means wake separation is on you. That is what I was told.
 

Stinger

Epic Member
May 24, 2009
1,562
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It is dumb - but so is line up and wait. Our controllers have to issue it behind certain heavier twins. I questioned it - in my Cub I do not have a prayer of either catching or avoiding a Falcon 10. It means wake separation is on you. That is what I was told.
A Cub behind another light single or twin needs 3000 feet of runway separation before you start your takeoff roll. The heavier twins like Super King Airs, and all jets, need 6000 feet of runway separation and airborne/clear of runway before you can start takeoff roll.

What do you mean that "line up and wait" means wake separation is on the controller?
 

bob44zw

Junior Member
Apr 5, 2011
108
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I meant (by "it") the phrase "maintain visual separation".

My point was we now use phrases that mean something other than their ordinary English Meaning. "Line up and wait" is often interpreted as "form a line at the hold bars". "Maintain visual separation" to me means "don't hit the guy".

The first time I got a "maintain visual separation" order I questioned it - after all, if a Citation is going away from me there is simply no question of separation. On the other hand, if a jet takes aim at a Cub, there is little the Cub can do about maintaining separation. We fly for a very long time in one spot. It is legalese for "wake separation is on you." The English language is precise enough to fix both these crazy clearances.
 

Stinger

Epic Member
May 24, 2009
1,562
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I meant (by "it") the phrase "maintain visual separation".

My point was we now use phrases that mean something other than their ordinary English Meaning. "Line up and wait" is often interpreted as "form a line at the hold bars". "Maintain visual separation" to me means "don't hit the guy".

The first time I got a "maintain visual separation" order I questioned it - after all, if a Citation is going away from me there is simply no question of separation. On the other hand, if a jet takes aim at a Cub, there is little the Cub can do about maintaining separation. We fly for a very long time in one spot. It is legalese for "wake separation is on you." The English language is precise enough to fix both these crazy clearances.
Yes, "maintain visual separation" means that mileage and wake separation in now on you, the pilot.

Are you being told to "maintain visual separation" when you're out flying around not in the pattern? Or is it only while in the pattern with someone heavier departing? Because if it's in the pattern it's not about you getting anywhere near the departing traffic, it's about you starting a takeoff roll less than 3 minutes from when the departing traffic rotated. If you're at an intersection ready to depart just after that Citation departed, you'll first get told to hold short for wake turbulence....but you can tell the controller you want to waive it....that's what the "maintain visual separation" is for on a touch-and-go, you're taking responsibility to avoid the departing traffic's wake.
 

DL0509

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
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I dont think you actually have to say "maintain visual separation" if a small is in the pattern and the Citation departs. The way we do it is " N1234, Citation departing RWY 23 report it insight." They report it insight. "N1234 RWY 23 cleared touch and go, caution wake turbulence departing Citation." If its a student or something with low time I will tell them base your discretion as well.
 

ajmezz

Epic Member
Apr 8, 2010
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Go read 7-2-1, a-2. You need to say “maintain vis sep” when they report in sight for pilot applied, if not you have to guarantee the WT time.
 

Stinger

Epic Member
May 24, 2009
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I dont think you actually have to say "maintain visual separation" if a small is in the pattern and the Citation departs. The way we do it is " N1234, Citation departing RWY 23 report it insight." They report it insight. "N1234 RWY 23 cleared touch and go, caution wake turbulence departing Citation." If its a student or something with low time I will tell them base your discretion as well.
Doing it your way was a change to the .65 that was supposed to take effect the summer of 2014 I think. However the day before the effective date, it was canceled. "Maintain visual separation" is still a requirement.
 

DL0509

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
153
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I fully understand what 7-2-1 says about it. I know alot of us control similar to how our trainers controlled and mine always saw 3-9-7 b.3 saying that you either need spacing or visual. "Provided the pilot is maintaining visual separation/spacing". Im not trying to say what you guys are saying is wrong, i like hearing what more experienced controllers have to say.
 

KStoves

Junior Member
Aug 22, 2011
133
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In primary flight training pilots are taught the characteristics of wake turbulence. They know that wake turbulence begins at the point a departing aircraft rotates. If a pilot is in the pattern doing touch and go's in a small aircraft and a small plus or bigger departs, the pilot will know he needs to land and take back off in the portion of the runway preceding the previous departures point of rotation. That way he can stay above the wake turbulence.

in order for him to do that he needs to visually observe where the previous aircraft rotated. In this circumstance maintain visual separation is required.

In any other circumstance maintain visual separation is obvious and a wasted a transmission.
 

j_time41

Senior Analyst
Nov 17, 2008
1,015
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Lakeville, MN
In any other circumstance maintain visual separation is obvious and a wasted a transmission.
Just to clarify, you are saying this from only from the tower perspective, correct?
When working radar in different situations, it’s a great tool. Not by any means a wasted transmission.

DL, you have to say “maintain vis sep” in your case. It’s one of the things in the .65 that is pretty clear. Not saying it is incorrect. Saying “base your discretion” is an example of a wasted transmission that is not required, but if it’s a newer pilot I understand why you want to say it.
 
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DL0509

Senior Member
May 26, 2016
153
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Yep afterlooking it over i think you have to say it. I havent been certified on local long so I always appreciate the advice and suggestion from more experienced controllers. Looking back i dont think ive heard a single person at my facility actually say mantain visual before clearing the a/c.