Senator Murray Asks Foxx About the Hiring Process

CutYouUp

Rookie
Jan 7, 2014
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The :p:p:p:p you saying? HR said we are taking the AT-SAT if they back out on that and start this over again, I'm gonna flip a shit.
It seems to appear that the hiring announcement has been 'compromised' due to posting of BQ before the bid officially ended. This may have given unfair advantage to those who were able to examine the questions closely before submitting them. Throwing the bid out seems to be the only fair way to remedy the situation.
 
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charliezuluatc

Guest
Congress is not going to do anything about this. They were asked by natca to do something years ago with the IWR, we all know what happened there.
 

SirMario

Senior Analyst
Apr 15, 2010
809
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It seems to appear that the hiring announcement has been 'compromised' due to posting of BQ before the bid officially ended. This may have given unfair advantage to those who were able to examine the questions closely before submitting them. Throwing the bid out seems to be the only fair way to remedy the situation.
Right, just wait for another bid if you didn't get selected...
 

Zedd

Junior Member
Oct 29, 2012
133
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It seems to appear that the hiring announcement has been 'compromised' due to posting of BQ before the bid officially ended. This may have given unfair advantage to those who were able to examine the questions closely before submitting them. Throwing the bid out seems to be the only fair way to remedy the situation.
You do realize you could closely examine the questions during the application? There was no time limit.
 

CutYouUp

Rookie
Jan 7, 2014
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You do realize you could closely examine the questions during the application? There was no time limit.
All speculation of course, but why then reprimand those involved with posting the BQ if it makes no difference? Posting and then analyzing the questions publicly would likely definitely give individuals who waited to take the test an advantage over others who immediately took the test first without such analysis.
 

dreweepoo

Senior Member
Jan 20, 2012
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The :p:p:p:p you saying? HR said we are taking the AT-SAT if they back out on that and start this over again, I'm gonna flip a shit.
LOL this is nothing. The past two announcements were cancelled. I had the green check last bid and made referral lists only to have them cancelled out. Just B/C they said you are taking the AT-SAT is not anything to hang your hat on. Welcome to the party. And I do not think they will cancel this bid, just sayin
 

psykomagician

Junior Member
Jan 10, 2014
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UGH, enough with this.

Our complaint isn't "CTI, good. OTS, bad."

It is that we were screened out by a 62-question personality test without having our resumes looked at, and our VALID AT-SAT scores canned solely because of the addition of the BQ to the hiring process.

Why is this so confusing?
It is standard civil service procedure to circularize (as in dump) an existing register when the selection process is changed, and make everyone re-complete under the new rules. See the OPM Delegated Examining Operations Handbook chapter 5 section C. And there is a large research literature on the validity of biodata as a personnel selection tool. Go to scholar.google.com and search on "biodata" and "personnel selection" and it returns 2,00+ hits in referred journals such as Journal of Applied Psychology and Personnel Psychology and International Journal of Selection and Assessment. Now as to this particular biodata instrument...I think you can bet that the FAA has a validity study it will point to, eventually, just like they have validity studies for AT-SAT. You can quarrel with it, say its not independent, blah blah blah. But you'll have to provide the proof ... and do you have proof? FAA chose to use biodata to screen 28K applications down to a smaller number, then verify work history and education, then refer to AT-SAT for additional testing. The qual standard requires aptitude testing for GS-5/7-level hires (I think its wrong that FAA offers GS-1, but that's a different fight), and the FAA gets to define what the aptitude test is. Looks like its biodata and the cognitive part of AT-SAT. Well within their scope of authority.

You don't like the fact that you got screened out on the biodata - that's not confusing.You don't like it - we get that. So now what?
 
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charliezuluatc

Guest
That at pay scale, the one natca has with the agency, does not fall under the gs pay or placement rules. The agency is one of the few agencies that has it's own rules.
 

psykomagician

Junior Member
Jan 10, 2014
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Once you're in the NATCA ATCS bargaining unit you go on the AT pay scale. But while at the FAA Academy just after hire, you're on a temporary appointment (not to exceed 1 year) at FG-1 (FAA Grade 1 - FAA is on its own banded pay system) with long-term per diem (covers housing costs basically).
 

Juan Valdez

Rookie
Mar 12, 2014
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"However, overall, a larger proportion of CTI trainees were successful and a smaller proportion unsuccessful than GP trainees. The largest difference between CTI and GP trainees was in unsuccessful performance. With only one exception (en route Level 8-9 Facility), the proportion of unsuccessful CTI trainees was less than the proportion of unsuccessful GP trainees. Simply based on training performance, a preference for CTI graduates over GP applicants at both en route and terminal facilities seems warranted. Future researchers should investigate the statistical significance of the difference between CTI and GP trainees, while controlling for factors such as level of facility."

Straight from the FAA
report

Scoreboard....
 

SierraBravo

Junior Member
Nov 22, 2011
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"However, overall, a larger proportion of CTI trainees were successful and a smaller proportion unsuccessful than GP trainees. The largest difference between CTI and GP trainees was in unsuccessful performance. With only one exception (en route Level 8-9 Facility), the proportion of unsuccessful CTI trainees was less than the proportion of unsuccessful GP trainees. Simply based on training performance, a preference for CTI graduates over GP applicants at both en route and terminal facilities seems warranted. Future researchers should investigate the statistical significance of the difference between CTI and GP trainees, while controlling for factors such as level of facility."

Straight from the FAA
report

Scoreboard....
We've been saying it all along... Thank you for posting the the proof verbatim.
 

thedenti5t

Junior Member
Feb 11, 2014
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Also, FYI:

From Robert Sturgell, acting FAA Administrator at the time (2008):


"Research has shown that the AT–SAT accurately predicts success as a controller trainee and correlates closely (0.7) with success on the first performance verification (practical examination) at the Academy. Studies continue on how the AT–SAT correlates to success in facility training and performance as a Certified Professional Controller (CPC). The AT–SAT has also been proven to have zero race and ethnic background bias. This is a rare quality in a pre-employment assessment."
That quote doesn't say anything hahaha the first sentence says that CTIs pass the first test of the academy, not the academy but the first evaluation. awesome Then the rest says nothing relavent to your argument Good point prover though
 

SierraBravo

Junior Member
Nov 22, 2011
112
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That quote doesn't say anything hahaha the first sentence says that CTIs pass the first test of the academy, not the academy but the first evaluation. awesome Then the rest says nothing relavent to your argument Good point prover though
It shows that the FAA went from "The AT-SAT is a solid indicator of potential success and has not a barrier to minorities," to "The BQ is the best indicator for success and the AT-SAT is a barrier to minorities," seemingly overnight with zero explanation.
 

h4xit

Trusted Contributor
Dec 9, 2010
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The barrier analysis and the extension claimed there was bias in the AT-SAT published after the report you quoted. 2008 to 2014 is hardly overnight. Also reference Broach's two reports on using a Biographical Assement for hiring screening. In it he recommends that the BQ can come before or after the ATSAT. Also by increasing the fail rate from 10% to 90% would gather an additional 10% success rate from hiring to CPC. You can find that in the discission of his second validity report.


Come on h4xit, he was on a roll.
My b
 

32andBelow

Senior Analyst
Jan 20, 2011
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The ATSAT was a barrier, so we created a test that disqualified 94% of the people right off the bat!
 

h4xit

Trusted Contributor
Dec 9, 2010
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Did you not read what I just said? They found it would be to their advantage to screen that much