STAR Speed Restrictions

spot

Newcomer
Jan 17, 2013
1
0
1
This should really apply to any profile STAR but I'll just reference this: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1301/09077CREDE.PDF

If an aircraft is issued a crossing restriction (but not a "descend via...instruction"), do hard speed restrictions on the chart apply? For the example above, if an aircraft was issued "Cross COFMN at and maintain FL270" would the 280kt at TUCKK apply. This is assuming no "descend via instruction" was ever issued.

Thank you.
 

BeaconSlash

Trusted Member
Aug 19, 2011
367
12
18
Instruction I have received states that speeds apply when flying a STAR regardless of the "descend via" clearance. Even saying "resume normal speed" does not delete published speed restrictions unless explicitly cancelled by ATC.

Short answer would be yes, it applies. However, I can not honestly point to any references in the .65 or AIM that explicitly state as much.
 

deltabravo89

Senior Analyst
Mar 11, 2010
1,011
0
36
We've had these at zme for a bit now. You have to issue the descend via clearance or they will not comply with altitude or speeds. Resume normal speed is not the same as resume published speed.
 

ATCtower

Epic Member
Oct 26, 2008
1,257
26
48
Your ''Decend via.." clearance superceeds the speed restriction.

If you do not issue a speed, the pilot(s) will fly the STAR as they wish and is their perogative until you issue a speed restriction.

We have dealt with this for years. "Descend now to FLxxx, then descend at pilots discretion to FLxxx, do not exceed 250kts". The next controller says 'cross xxxxx at 13000, 230kts', negates ALL speed restrictions. If you want the restriction to apply you must issue 'cross xxxxx at 13000, do not exceed xxxKTS
 

Roddy_Piper

Resident Knucklehead
Jun 15, 2008
3,339
18
38
Vegas baby
www.myspace.com
this is a tough one. we do RNAV arrivals (with speeds) for 85% of our arrivals.
SUNST3, KEPEC3, GRNPA1, TYSSN3.

i've seen the cat rear it's ugly head on both sides of the coin. there is no "black and white" guidance in the .65. if it's in the AIM i could care less because it's not regulatory. anything short of "descend via" and you're really taking a risk assuming what speed the pilot will do. that is because the .65 is vague about it. it's clear about altitude restrictions, but not speed restrictions.

descend via or comply with the speed restriction at (IPUMY) is really your only GUARANTEE on speeds.

roughly 80% of the time the pilot will comply with the speed if you issue manual descent without ever stating "descend via" or "comply with ... restrictions"
 

jjsz422

Newcomer
Sep 24, 2013
2
0
1
N90
The pilots are required to comply with the speed restrictions regardless of altitude or descend via clearance. Altitudes and speeds are two separate restrictions on an RNAV STAR. The only way the pilot should not comply with the speed is if you issue a clearance to disregard the speed restrictions. Telling them to resume normal speed requires them to comply with the speeds on the procedure. While the following link is fairly new, it is just a reissued notice that has been in affect for over 6 years.

Altitude and Speed Constraints Published on  Area Navigation
 

Centerpuke

Junior Member
Sep 22, 2008
149
1
18
HOT-LANTA
Your ''Decend via.." clearance superceeds the speed restriction.

If you do not issue a speed, the pilot(s) will fly the STAR as they wish and is their perogative until you issue a speed restriction.

We have dealt with this for years. "Descend now to FLxxx, then descend at pilots discretion to FLxxx, do not exceed 250kts". The next controller says 'cross xxxxx at 13000, 230kts', negates ALL speed restrictions. If you want the restriction to apply you must issue 'cross xxxxx at 13000, do not exceed xxxKTS
I think he is referring to an OPD and not a simple crossing restriction. Like jjsz and Roddy said, once assigned an OPD STAR, the speed restrictions apply regardless of altitude assigned.
 

Elitesauce

Newcomer
Jan 18, 2014
1
0
1
I work the CREDE2/PEEKK2 and TELLR1/LDORA1 arrivals into KDEN. I do not expect you to fly the speeds on the arrival until your given a "descend via" clearance.
 

h4xit

Trusted Contributor
Dec 9, 2010
688
13
18
If you give the crossing restriction often some will give the speeds with it. I've also heard some controllers say "comply with the speeds on the arrival"
 

SnowAviation

Senior Member
Jan 29, 2009
292
4
18
Southern California TRACON
This should really apply to any profile STAR but I'll just reference this: http://155.178.201.160/d-tpp/1301/09077CREDE.PDF

If an aircraft is issued a crossing restriction (but not a "descend via...instruction"), do hard speed restrictions on the chart apply? For the example above, if an aircraft was issued "Cross COFMN at and maintain FL270" would the 280kt at TUCKK apply. This is assuming no "descend via instruction" was ever issued.

Thank you.
Q: If an aircraft is issued a crossing restriction (but not a "descend via...instruction"), do hard speed restrictions on the chart apply?
A: Yes.

Q: ...if an aircraft was issued "Cross COFMN at and maintain FL270" would the 280kt at TUCKK apply?
A. Yes.

To avoid the speed restriction at TUCKK, you either need to issue a speed to the aircraft or advise them to "DELETE SPEED RESTRICTIONS". Even if you issue a speed restriction and then later state "Resume Normal Speed" the published restriction would automatically re-apply. The bars indicate a mandatory speed.