"Traffic Observed" vs. "Roger"

ATCinWI

Senior Member
Feb 17, 2009
284
1
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39
Illinois
Here's the situation: Satellite departures are required to point-out northbound departures to the primary airport departure controller. The departure controller says, "stay west of N12345 and climb below N5432A, point-out approved"

Is the correct response from the satellite controller: "roger", "traffic observed", or is either acceptable? The pilot/controller glossary and the chapter on inter-phone message format of the .65 implies that "roger" is an acceptable response to instructions between a pilot and a controller, but I can't find a reference for controller-to-controller communications for this situation.

I tend to think that "roger" is okay, but I'd like some other opinions (or facts, if someone has them) on the matter.
 

DairyCreamer

Senior Member
Apr 26, 2009
185
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Elsewhere
This is textbook "traffic observed."

.65 5-4-2.f

f. Traffic Observed. The term used to inform the controller issuing the traffic restrictions that the traffic is identified and that the restrictions issued are understood and will be complied with.
I would go so far as to say roger alone is the worst possible reply. Per the PCG:

ROGER- I have received all of your last transmission. It should not be used to answer a question requiring a yes or a no answer.
You'd do better perhaps with:

WILCO- I have received your message, understand it, and will comply with it.
But... "traffic observed" has that formal definition above specifically intended for use with the transfer of radar identification, as in the case of a point out.
 
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A

atcpookie

Guest
How about let's start with the bad phraseology from the recieving controller......"stay west of N12345 and climb below N5432A, point-out approved" is in no way the positive tranfer of radar identification. At this point you have nothing to miss. Unless there is something in the LOA saying that a data tag constiutes tranfer of radar ID.

If the latter is the case you could even say "WILCO"

Hope this helps.
 

atcguruaf

Rico Suave
Jan 4, 2009
1,373
0
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Right here
Here's the situation: Satellite departures are required to point-out northbound departures to the primary airport departure controller. The departure controller says, "stay west of N12345 and climb below N5432A, point-out approved"

Is the correct response from the satellite controller: "roger", "traffic observed", or is either acceptable? The pilot/controller glossary and the chapter on inter-phone message format of the .65 implies that "roger" is an acceptable response to instructions between a pilot and a controller, but I can't find a reference for controller-to-controller communications for this situation.

I tend to think that "roger" is okay, but I'd like some other opinions (or facts, if someone has them) on the matter.
Wilco is most appropriate. Since there wasn't a call of "traffic, N12345, blah blah blah," there is no need to say "traffic observed."

I would use "traffic observed" in the following instance:

Controller 1 - Point Out, blah blah blah.
Controller 2 - Traffic, blah blah blah, point out approved.
Controller 1 - Traffic observed, BH.
Controller 2 - SA

That's how I would use "traffic observed". In your instance, wilco would be a more appropriate response (in my opinion).
 

P_to_the_R

Ruler of the Movement Area
Nov 19, 2008
519
1
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funkytown
Maybe I am being a bit harsh but this is day one, page one of radar training. Its early so maybe I am just cranky but come on...read the book!
 

klkm

Senior Member
Jun 26, 2008
213
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Maybe I am being a bit harsh but this is day one, page one of radar training. Its early so maybe I am just cranky but come on...read the book!
I agree, doesn't matter what the other controllers phraesology is on giving the traffic "traffic observed" is the textbook way to respond anytime someone points out traffic for your point out. wilco and roger are not appropriate responses on the landline, according to the textbook. Obviously in practice people say it all the time, but it goes along the lines of "show it" not in the textbook but at least you know they understand and will issue what you asked.
 

admin

Administrator
Staff member
Jun 11, 2008
4,419
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38
How about "point out approved, miss my traffic." ha...we have controllers that do that. It's funny.
 

ATCinWI

Senior Member
Feb 17, 2009
284
1
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39
Illinois
Maybe I am being a bit harsh but this is day one, page one of radar training. Its early so maybe I am just cranky but come on...read the book!
This was a discussion at a high level TRACON the other day I wanted some input from the outside. Read the original post; we read the book. Maybe I'm cranky because I'm home on sick leave today, but come on...responses like this don't help anything.
 

WatchThis

Trusted Contributor
Apr 29, 2010
557
0
16
Arizona
I agree, doesn't matter what the other controllers phraesology is on giving the traffic "traffic observed" is the textbook way to respond anytime someone points out traffic for your point out. wilco and roger are not appropriate responses on the landline, according to the textbook. Obviously in practice people say it all the time, but it goes along the lines of "show it" not in the textbook but at least you know they understand and will issue what you asked.
I don't agree with this. If one controller doesn't transfer radar identification properly, the other shouldn't respond with terms that indicate the transfer was made. In this case, "wilco" is the only answer but I agree the interchange is sloppy.
 
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meatasaurusx

Trusted Member
Jun 19, 2008
369
2
18
Chi-town
Saying stay west of n123 and climb below n456 means absolutely nothing. 1 mile west of n123 at the same altitude is still west of it regardless of the fact that you don't have standard radar separation. I know that everyone knows what the stay west of and below means, but could you defend yourself in a court if you had to. The best way is to stick to proper phraseology

1: point out n12345...
2: traffic is n123... And n456...
1: traffic observed
2: n12345 point out approved
 

P_to_the_R

Ruler of the Movement Area
Nov 19, 2008
519
1
18
funkytown
This was a discussion at a high level TRACON the other day I wanted some input from the outside. Read the original post; we read the book. Maybe I'm cranky because I'm home on sick leave today, but come on...responses like this don't help anything.
Sorry if my response didnt help. Dairy Creamer's near the beginning of the thread was perfect and you should thank him since he probably found those definitions in the book and posted them in less than 5 minutes. Things must be too fast and too furious at your facility that they rip out all the PCGs of every .65...good thing he found it for you.
 

meatasaurusx

Trusted Member
Jun 19, 2008
369
2
18
Chi-town
Here's the situation: Satellite departures are required to point-out northbound departures to the primary airport departure controller. The departure controller says, "stay west of N12345 and climb below N5432A, point-out approved"

Is the correct response from the satellite controller: "roger", "traffic observed", or is either acceptable? The pilot/controller glossary and the chapter on inter-phone message format of the .65 implies that "roger" is an acceptable response to instructions between a pilot and a controller, but I can't find a reference for controller-to-controller communications for this situation.

I tend to think that "roger" is okay, but I'd like some other opinions (or facts, if someone has them) on the matter.
Despite my previous answer I am probably one of the south departure controllers that says stuff like "stay under_" and "get west of_" while you are on sector 3 trying to get the northbound to 6 or 13. I would think that once I've said point out approved I'm not looking for a response from you. I'm expecting you to start climbing and miss the aircraft I told you to