Understanding the New Seniority Rule..

rbrad

Newcomer
Sep 15, 2008
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If you have not heard (correct me if I am wrong), any person who was either a temp sup or permanent sup will come back to the floor with his/her new seniority starting at the point when the management position ended? This is retroactive to the forced whitebook...

WOW! Why would the union do this to so many people just trying to figure out what direction they want to go in their career?

Lets face it, ever since joining the the FAA in 2003 the union hasn't done a whole lot for me. I have the FAA lying to me about my pay raise (hired under the old contract, check out with the new), then the union doing something crazy like this... Who does this benefit?
 

oneatcer

Junior Member
Jun 17, 2008
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I hear the same thing. What irony; the green book and white book are exactly the same in regards to temp promotions. They are seemingly encouraged because of the language demanding immediate pay raises and the like. Then during the convention the gurus reverse course and punish all who took temp positions for whatever reason. Though as far as I can see the white book allows the union to change the seniority procedures once during the life of the contract, I also see some case law that doesn't allow the unions bylaws to be changed retroactively. This convention decision has ULP action written all over it. I have been a union member in good standing since I joined the FAA, continue to get a union pamphlet every month (even after I took a temp position), and get regular emails from the union, but not once have I heard of this pending action. Furthermore, the union is now limiting my right to promotion by punishing me for exploring, on a temporary basis, different options within the agency. My two cents worth anyway.

oneatcer
 
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Mclaren99

Junior Member
Jul 9, 2008
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Southern Region CPC
Yes, this is very dumb. The union hasn't done much for me either. As a CPC I can gripe. The other dumb move is this stupid class action suit that would take our ability to earn credit hours away. I love credit, even if we only get 24 hours now. And where is my NATCA dues reimbursement that was supposed to come months ago. I could really use that money and I could really use the money I spend on dues.

Very aggravated right now. I just completed my self-assessment and when an incentive bonus bid comes out with a paid PCS move to a higher level facility I WILL bid on it. Its not "blood money"....its my money if I choose to take it. We've got senior controllers here leaving the union so it is not just the young guys that are fed up. And what if McCain wins??? Things will remain the same so you have to get your money where you can. I have a family and cannot risk them for shallow promises and dim hope. UUUUgggggHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

JetJammer

Newcomer
Jun 14, 2008
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This is one of the best things to ever come out of a NATCA convention. If you have become a supe since 9/3/2006 you have helped the FAA enforce the IWR's on your fellow controllers. You have also gotten raises for doing little more than run a break list while your fellow controllers have gotten nothing but six day work weeks and more OJT duties. If you newbies out there think this amendment is dumb than in my opinion you think the IWR's are just fine and you are satisfied with your current pay.
 

oneatcer

Junior Member
Jun 17, 2008
77
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TX
Every member of the union had an opportunity to submit an amendment. Just out of curiosity why do you disagree with it. You wouldn't happen to be a supervisor would you?
Had the opportunity to submit an ammendment to what? The bylaws? The proposed new senority rule? How do you propose that a temporary supe, who was a member in good standing from the day he was hired, make an amendment to a change in bylaws? That being said, you're presupposing that everybody knew that this proposal was being forwarded. I heard rumors about the proposal two weeks before the convention, even though I've been getting NATCA newsletters since I hired on. Yes, I am a temp supe, and have been apologized to at least a half dozen times that "I'm sorry the union did this to you", just in the last two days. You see, I'm a controllers supervisor who thought I could make a difference because of past management incompetence. I've bent over backwards to keep controllers happy, while making sure the job gets done. And yes, the job involves more than just "run a breaklist". So in the end as it concerns me only, you as a union lost in two ways; I will persue every opportunity to become a permanent part of management because I'll be damned if my senority gets zeroed out while trying to help my fellow controllers. And, though I'll always be a controllers supervisor, the new temps will be even more hard nosed anti-union knowing what is in store for them. Regardless of my future, one thing is guaranteed, if I go back to the boards, the union will never get another dime of my money...and you'll still have to represent me...HAH!
 

Roddy_Piper

Resident Knucklehead
Jun 15, 2008
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Vegas baby
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Oneatcer,

We need more supes like you. Temp or permanent, it doesn't matter. If you are a controllers sup then we need u to be permanent. I've had 2 controllers sups since the IWR's and I can speak from experience that my attitude is completely different depending on the sup on duty.

I'm sorry to hear this new development. Maybe I'm naive, or just ignorant, but I thought it was always this way. My area had a controller that was a temp sup 6-7 years ago, before getting put back on the boards. He's almost as old as the Wright brothers yet still only about 5 people ahead of me in seniority. This makes me think it's not necessarily a new ruling, just one that's come to light with the droves of new temp sups.

I personally believe that seniority should be based on good time on the boards. I do believe that sup time should not count towards seniority if you go back to being a controller. However, I also don't believe you should go back to zero time. You should at least keep the XX amount of time you had before accepting the temp sup bid. That's just my opinion.

Thanks again oneatcer for being one of the ally sups. We need more like you!
 

The Heatles

Loving Life
Jun 15, 2008
2,172
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Miami, FL
Why does NATCA seem more and more un-friendly to its own lately?


So... seniority for what is reset? Seniority within the union or at your facility? What benefits does this give you over someone else?
 
A

Adam

Guest
seniority means a lot....highest seniority allows you the first pick of regular days off for the year...it also allows you first pick at vacation leave.

natca just passed at this last convention that for example:

Jack - been a controller for 25 years but has been a sup (either temp or permanent) as of September 2006....but will quit being a sup and go back to the controller ranks in October of 2008.

Jill - been a controller for 3 months

As of last week, if both Jack and Jill were controllers...Jack has more seniority than Jill once Jack returns to being a controller in October 2008...He will have a total of 23 years seniority and Jill will only have 3 months.

Your seniority is time that you spent in the bargaining unit. The two years that Jack has been a supervisor does not count towards seniority time since he is no longer in the bargaining unit...that's why since he has been in the FAA for 25 years, since two of them were supervisor....he only has 23 years seniority.

Well...as of now with the new amendment natca passed....when Jack returns to the controller ranks in October of this year....even though he has 25 years total controlling...and 23 years total in the bargaining unit....his seniority date now starts over from the time he re-joined the bargaining unit...which means...he has 0 months of seniority.

So now Jill that has been an FAA employee for 3 months...she is an OTS hire that just checked into her facility, has more seniority that Jack that has put 25 years of his time into the FAA. So Jill gets first pick over Jack of days off and vacation leave.

Again...this amendment is retroactive to anyone that took a management position after the new work rules went into effect in Sep. of 2006....
 

The Heatles

Loving Life
Jun 15, 2008
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nice... punishing those trying to help further their careers, and this a union rule? sounds like something straight out of the IWR's haha
 

Roddy_Piper

Resident Knucklehead
Jun 15, 2008
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so let me play devils advocate here real quick. someone makes XXX amount of dollars a year as a CPC. he becomes a temp sup. now he goes up to the MSS payscale (possibly big raise) and gets all of his CIP for not even controlling daily. when the temp sup job is up and the FAA decides the temp sup will not become permanent, what is the persons pay?? back to the old pay prior to temp sup (old scale), back to the top of the new IWR payscale (new scale), or keep the MSS payscale base pay (plus possibly keeping CIP)?? i'm interested in that answer.

i can't say for sure cuz i'm not in that situation but personally i may not care about my seniority if i'm keeping the much higher MSS scale pay. especially if i was an employee for less than 7 years or so and someone near the bottom to middle of the pay band.

case in point: at ZOA a 7 year CPC is making ~$115,000/year (obviously pre-IWR which means their pay is frozen). he makes temp sup and immediately goes up to ~$154,000. oh yeah, don't forget to add in the 100% CIP too. that's a new employees yearly salary amount of raise.
 

admin

Administrator
Staff member
Jun 11, 2008
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Well, I know one person that is a temp sup and will be finished here shortly...when he is up, he will go back to the pay he was making as an FPL before the temp job....he was already about the new pay band...in the old pay band as he has been a controller for a while, so again, he just goes back to the pay he was making prior to taking the sup job.
 

The Heatles

Loving Life
Jun 15, 2008
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what are the qualifications needed for a FLM/Supervisor?? Besides the stick in the ass of course, haha... College Degree? minimum number of years? Just curious.
 

oneatcer

Junior Member
Jun 17, 2008
77
3
8
TX
Roddy, thanks for the vote of confidence. I knew I would lose the year, but never in my wildest dreams did I think I would lose everything. Oh well, life goes on.
 

gcarlson

Newcomer
Jun 19, 2008
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Go to flra.gov and fill out a ulp. Unions can't punish bargaining unit members for doing their job.
 

cavedweller

Newcomer
Jun 17, 2008
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We have our supervisors FULLY STAFFED and yet we still do more CIC time than most of the supervisors. By taking bodies off the boards the supervisors are getting all the VL that can and the operators are working more and more. This move was done to keep controllers on the boards and keep us as fully staffed as possible.

The supervisors have marching orders and if they dont comply their jobs are on the line. A Pro Union supervisor cannot make changes because management has no interest in working with the union in any fasion. Simple working conditions could be inproved drastrically IF management would work with the union, Often we have to file reports with safety because Management is putting into place rules and operations that are illegal! If they would only ask the people who are doing the job!

As for a ULP, those items would go against management, the FAA allows the Union to set senority.

Remember UNION is together. We cant Strike so we must do what we can to keep as closely kint together as possible.