What are the main reasons / factors that will allow an OTS to land a level 12 fac.

BoomerSooner77

I am rubber, you're glue.
Oct 8, 2008
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A lot of people keep saying don't start out in 11/12s... from what I've observed and responses I've gotten asking controllers... what you all are talking about when saying "Don't do it!" is specific to Tower/TRACON...

Enroute is a different story, they're well equipped to train nubees and don't necessarily see the washout rate of 11/12 Tower/TRACONs
 

Nofear

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Oct 11, 2008
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I think its easy to take a look at that pay grade and think daaang please send me to a level 12 : ). But, ATC is complicated and can be very stressful and if you don't pick up things quick and or really have a knack for the job you have less time and opportunity to learn in a level 12. A level 12 is a 12 for good reason its always busy. Most other facilities you will have slower times where you can learn the ropes, improve your skills etc. I am one of those people who really likes a challenge but I want to do everything I can do be successful and enjoy my job (I am already losing some hair w/o having to pull it out) : ) Good luck to all just something to consider.
 

SFATKE

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Jan 22, 2009
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Those are good points! Due to my personal goals I'm looking at jobs that first fit into a financial category (salary) and then choosing from them the one l will enjoy the most. Thats probably how most people are, I think it goes the other way though. If you love your job but dont make enough money for what you want do then whats the point.

As for the other points I understand that it takes 2-4 yrs. at a level 12 to get through all the training is that accurate?
 
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noid

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Jun 24, 2008
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A lot of people keep saying don't start out in 11/12s... from what I've observed and responses I've gotten asking controllers... what you all are talking about when saying "Don't do it!" is specific to Tower/TRACON...

Enroute is a different story, they're well equipped to train nubees and don't necessarily see the washout rate of 11/12 Tower/TRACONs
I agree with you there, my mistake for not clarifying what I was trying to say.


Lets say 20 people go to a level 12 all with a score of 93 on the AT-ACT how many will normally washout?
Honestly, scores don't mean a whole lot to me. At a 12 terminal, average around 40-60% washout. Again, these are numbers that I have seen, nothing published. A couple friends went to NY TRACON, them and everyone else in their class either washed our quit...that was about 10-12 people.
 

SFATKE

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If those numbers are accurate then it seems like we are all doomed b/c we cant really pick the airport that we wanna go to right, and if 50% are hitting the fan then level 12s are gonna recruit everyone.
 

BoomerSooner77

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Oct 8, 2008
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I guess both, Im aware of the job descriptions for both, but not of different trainning times.
Terminal, I've not a clue... it REALLY varies by facility.

There are three enroute centers who have approval to "test" a reduced training time to CPC of 18 months post Academy... Chicago is one of them, I don't know the other two, but I am pretty sure Houston is one of them as well.

Generally you can expect to check out at enroute 2-3 years (used to be 3-5 years) depending on the facility (keep in mind in the past couple years there've been many instances of OJT being on hold for this reason or that which could bump it up to the 3 years, that Colts guy can tell you all about that)... last I was aware, each center kinda has their own timeline although the general curriculum in mandated each facility does it their own way. THAT SAID... my understanding is Raytheon is working towards making sure they are all on the same page. I wouldn't doubt they go with the training model Chicago is using to get more people CPC sooner.

If I am way off base, someone let me know.
 

ColtsATC

Trusted Contributor
Aug 27, 2008
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And I for one definitely don't agree with faster check out times. There are some jobs you just need the experience with, and this is easily one of them. It's a fairly simple job keeping planes away from each other on a normal day. It's the weird stuff that gets you...and there is ALOT of weird stuff that can happen...trust me.
 
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irishcarbomb

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Dec 3, 2008
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There are three enroute centers who have approval to "test" a reduced training time to CPC of 18 months post Academy... Chicago is one of them, I don't know the other two, but I am pretty sure Houston is one of them as well.
houston is...when i was there last week touring with the training manager, she said 14-18months to be checked out at the center
 

noid

Curtis E. Carr
Jun 24, 2008
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And I for one definitely don't agree with faster check out times. There are some jobs you just need the experience with, and this is easily one of them. It's a fairly simple job keeping planes away from each other on a normal day. It's the weird stuff that gets you...and there is ALOT of weird stuff that can happen...trust me.
couldn't agree more. the air traffic system will be in a world of hurt when most of the old timers are gone and the new guys are left w/o the experience to run the busiest facilities. scary huh?
 

ATCBOY

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Jun 16, 2008
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Terminal, I've not a clue... it REALLY varies by facility.

There are three enroute centers who have approval to "test" a reduced training time to CPC of 18 months post Academy... Chicago is one of them, I don't know the other two, but I am pretty sure Houston is one of them as well.


I believe that theres more than 3.. ZAB and ZNY is also doing the Functional training I believe.. I could see all of the centers going this route eventually.
 

Roddy_Piper

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that functional training u talk about is a joke. u will not check out any faster because they say u are. it still depends on what u can do on the D-side and how u do behind the Radar. all the functional training really means is that you'll have less hours allotted to check out and you will skip parts of stage III and stage IV. no more, no less. 18 months is based on the average people have been taking minus the amount of training that is no longer mandatory. the training that is no longer mandatory just means that you have less training and less tools to do the job with.

by all means functional training is an excellent idea for those that it would benefit. it doesn't do anything for the majority that will take the average amount of time to check out anyway. listen guys...if u were allowed 100 hours maximum on your first R-side yesterday, and today you are allowed 50 hours maximum...how is your training getting sped up? u will still take the amount of time u need to grasp the position. unfortunately if that amount of time is 60 hours then guess what, your getting washed out today. however, yesterday you would've been checking out at 60% of your maximum instead of over your hours and washed.

don't get too overly excited. it's just a quicker pace to figure out who can do the job and who cannot. they don't have to waste those extra 50 hours allowing you every opportunity to see if u can get certified.

i'm 100% on board with getting rid of the stage III and IV lecture hours.
 

ColtsATC

Trusted Contributor
Aug 27, 2008
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that functional training u talk about is a joke. u will not check out any faster because they say u are. it still depends on what u can do on the D-side and how u do behind the Radar. all the functional training really means is that you'll have less hours allotted to check out and you will skip parts of stage III and stage IV. no more, no less. 18 months is based on the average people have been taking minus the amount of training that is no longer mandatory. the training that is no longer mandatory just means that you have less training and less tools to do the job with.

by all means functional training is an excellent idea for those that it would benefit. it doesn't do anything for the majority that will take the average amount of time to check out anyway. listen guys...if u were allowed 100 hours maximum on your first R-side yesterday, and today you are allowed 50 hours maximum...how is your training getting sped up? u will still take the amount of time u need to grasp the position. unfortunately if that amount of time is 60 hours then guess what, your getting washed out today. however, yesterday you would've been checking out at 60% of your maximum instead of over your hours and washed.

don't get too overly excited. it's just a quicker pace to figure out who can do the job and who cannot. they don't have to waste those extra 50 hours allowing you every opportunity to see if u can get certified.

i'm 100% on board with getting rid of the stage III and IV lecture hours.

Exactly. And I'm ok with getting rid of Stage 3 and 4 lecture hours too...since those are my next stages lol.
 

photostarr

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Aug 30, 2008
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A fellow I know that controls at ZDV (19 years) told me their wash out rate is as low as 10% with a checkout average of 2 1/2 years. And another kid who "interned" at D01 told me something about an 80% washout rate. Those TRACON fellas over there are INTENSE people. The intern kid talked about a guy who was going to "make it my personal mission to wash you out". XD Take it or leave it. That's what this dude told me.
 

Rosstafari

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Aug 17, 2008
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18 months is based on the average people have been taking minus the amount of training that is no longer mandatory. the training that is no longer mandatory just means that you have less training and less tools to do the job with.
...
Man. As if there wasn't enough to make me edgy.

Those TRACON fellas over there are INTENSE people. The intern kid talked about a guy who was going to "make it my personal mission to wash you out". XD Take it or leave it. That's what this dude told me.
Heh. Sounds like ATLTRACON over at the other place. That guy seemed to hate everyone but himself.
 

vyper1278

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Oct 19, 2008
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These questions seem to assume that you have a choice in picking up a level 12. Cant say it is always one way or another but I wasnt going for a level 12. 8 would have been great and put it is the comments sections, to no avail. And now I am headed to lvl 12 enroute. So unless you choose a state that doesnt have a lvl 12 I would say this is all academic.
 

killswitch

Tin Pusher
Sep 12, 2008
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Couldn't agree more with the comments, "check your attitude at the door", "thick skin", and "listen to the CPC's and learn".
That should be any job but I'd say especially this one. You can't afford to have an attitude or think your are something. Get in, keep your head down, shut your mouth, and open your ears. Thank those guys every day for helping you as they are the biggest if not the only reason you will be succeeding. Best of luck!