Why ATC Doesn't Use Make when Calling Anymore?

Devil07

Rookie
Jul 14, 2018
67
0
6
What you guys (gals) do is amazing. I really appreciate the explanations. Talking with actual controllers really helps me conceptualize what is happening, and removes a lot of the mystery. As you know, radio communications is very intimidating to many pilots who don't do it for a living. Thanks again for all the feedback!
 

Jax

Senior Analyst
Nov 17, 2010
869
32
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N90-EWR
There's nothing wrong with using November. Nowhere in the .65, or anywhere else will you find anything saying otherwise. As for that nonsense about the good old days.....yeah, nonsense. I've been working at N90 since 1991 and it's always been used. Just as much back then as it is now. Why is this such a big deal? making a storm out of a glass of water. There are way too many other more important pressing matters to worry about when flying, or controlling than to be nit picking whether you get called by your make or November.
 

slater

Epic Member
Oct 16, 2009
1,293
17
38
Outside your window
The book only requires us to say November. Anything more is a treat. You could be flying while a noob is training and thats that. Either way, we get it. Sometimes were just too busy to look down or worry about type, more so seperating AC.
 

Brewdude

Senior Member
Oct 31, 2008
198
1
18
In the 4th line the destination being displayed is required. If there is a speed or heading assigned, this takes the place of the destination. There is no way to only allow type to be displayed continuously, if at all, constantly in the 4th line. We have to press another button on a seperate keyboard to see type acft on the 4th line, then when we let off the button, it goes back to the destination (or heading or speed, depending if they have one).
I have no idea what kind of plane any airliner on my scope is either, only time I use this button is for issuing traffic advisories.
It is possible to have type default in fourth line. It may be your center requirement to keep destination in fourth but there is no .65 requirement. I know people who run types in default, some that run destination, and some that don’t run a fourth line at all
 

SPOONY90

Trusted Contributor
Jun 11, 2014
707
5
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It is possible to have type default in fourth line. It may be your center requirement to keep destination in fourth but there is no .65 requirement. I know people who run types in default, some that run destination, and some that don’t run a fourth line at all
4th line.... I’m curious what that looks like. We only use 2 in our Tracon with the Y and H block time sharing info
 

bub89y2k

Rookie
Jan 23, 2014
44
1
8
AAL2345 AID
320T295 Assigned altitude/ mode c
67A 495 CID Ground Speed
KJFK Destination (can be type)
 

HenryTheAce

Senior Member
Jul 21, 2014
251
0
16
ZMP -> D21
DAL810
330^215
234 360
H330 S300

we can also input assigned heading and assigned airspeed in the fourth line. Then toggle back and forth between that info and destination/type (whatever you’re displaying)
 

Devil07

Rookie
Jul 14, 2018
67
0
6
I totally get it now. I see why controllers sometimes don't refer to type. It is because its optional for controllers to do so. Its like when pilots call a tower and don't tell the tower that they have the current information. Its not illegal for pilots to do that, sometimes they forget, sometimes they are overwhelmed, sometimes they don't have ATIS frequency, sometimes they are just lazy. I always try to tell tower that I have the current info, not because its mandatory, but because its good form.

For fun I looked up JO 7110.65X section 2-4-20(a)(1) (Aircraft Identification). (Yes, for fun.) Basically, it says that controllers are supposed to use "November" when ATC is initiating communication with US registered aircraft. However, it says that the controller may state the aircraft type, the model, the manufacturer's name....if used by the pilot on the initial or subsequent call.

The use of the word "may" indicates that using type is optional, and at the discretion of the controller. However, in that same section there several Examples, and all of the examples show the controller using the type when responding to pilot's initial or subsequent call: (i.e. "Jet Commander One, Two Three Four Papa"; "Bonanza One Two Three Four Tango"; & "Sikorsky Six Three Eight Mike Foxtrot").
 
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lowapproach

Epic Member
Oct 29, 2010
1,316
32
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WV
I work in a center. My knowledge of aircraft makes and models is limited, and it's likely to remain that way. You are a blip with a ground speed and a climb/descent rate to me, just like you would be if you were flying for an airline.

If I know what your type is or if you check on with it, I might use it. I'm not going to guess if I don't know. And if I'm truly busy, I'm not going to research your aircraft type, especially when searches for some types yields a couple dozen variants by multiple manufacturers.

You should be listening for your last three. It should make you unique in my airspace, and if it doesn't, I'll tell you and use your full callsign.
 

imupillgo

Newcomer
Jan 7, 2015
1
0
1
Academy encourages the use of Manufacture/model, however, that is as far as it goes. The aircraft characteristics test is so basic, only comparing singles to twins, twins to jets, jets to fighters, that a movie star could pass it. Current training is done by the "new" generation controller that was not required the extensive aircraft recognition/characteristics knowledge of the previous generation of controller, so, therefore you'll get "November one two three Alpha Bravo" (if you are lucky, most drop all but the last three alpha-numeric).
 

Bdlb26

Rookie
Aug 16, 2016
34
1
8
What about companies that have a 3 letter designator. I imagine the center people probably get several that they dont know. Is it common practice to just spell their 3 letters out phonetically if you dont know the name or are you supposed to figure it out? I work at a small tower so it only comes up occasionally and theres usually plenty of time to just look it up...
 

NovemberEcho

Epic Member
Dec 8, 2010
4,388
68
48
Long Island
What about companies that have a 3 letter designator. I imagine the center people probably get several that they dont know. Is it common practice to just spell their 3 letters out phonetically if you dont know the name or are you supposed to figure it out? I work at a small tower so it only comes up occasionally and theres usually plenty of time to just look it up...
we have a database we can look the ID up but it’s not uncommon to not be in there. So you either listen up when they check in with their call sign, or you can say “whiskey tango foxtrot 123, what’s your call sign?” Sometimes if it’s a heavily accented pilot you’ll never understand it and then just spell it phonetically.